SPEAKER_01 0:00

Do we have to do this? I was less nervous at the start of the 2003 Iraq War. When I walked in, you're like, You ready to cry? Oh, it's one of those kind of podcasts. Yeah, the answer to that is no.

SPEAKER_05 0:14

Here comes the sun. Here comes the sun da say. It's alright.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Hello, Fortitude Podcast guests. My name is Heather Kittleson, and I am your host. And I normally would have a co-host sitting next to me today. And instead, he is playing a different part. So Amos is here with me, but he is the guest today. Hi. Welcome. Welcome to your kitchen table.

SPEAKER_04 0:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

We have switched up the studio, and Amos and I are sitting at our kitchen table with you today. And we're really excited because this episode is going to be intimate. It's going to be real and it's going to be raw. Just the way we like it.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

When you say we're really excited, I think you mean you're really excited.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Why? Do tell.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Because when I walked in the house, when I walked in the front door to come do this, you said, Are you ready to cry? And I said, Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

No, I don't like crying.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Daddy don't like crying.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

It's a weekly thing for us because we like to have the good, tough conversations that bring transformation.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

But we're vulnerable and we don't mind being vulnerable as uncomfortable as it is, because it's for the betterment, the betterment of others, right? Like we want to share. We both love sharing what we've gone through. And if that can help couples stay together and save marriages, then boo yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Yeah. So you know what that means? You get to be the one to go really vulnerable today. So fortitude, Anya. I am really um, I'm just excited to share Amos with all of you. Uh, when we speak on stages and we get to share our story of redemption and the power of the Lord in our life, it really does. It impacts people, it changes lives. It it is a lot of our story, not my story. And so I have the privilege just to ask some really tough questions that are in full transparency really hard to hear. Um, because it involves me and my uh lack of or just different things. The shoulda, woulda, coulda's come out. And that's really hard to swallow, especially with your best friend.

SPEAKER_04 2:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

So we do have a dog here. We have a train that runs in our backyard. We have a lot of wonderful, blessed uh interruptions. And so you're you're hanging out with us today. So good work, come here, come here. Yeah, our dog already is is wanting attention, just like the children the minute we start talking. Yeah, that's a real thing.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

It's so true.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Okay, Amos. This episode, I am not going to do any dialogue back and forth with you. I really want the audience to hear from your heart and hear what you have been able to overcome with um just being a man of God, a leader of our family, and a dad to our beautiful kids. I want more than anything, as I was in prayer, I say I, but I mean the Holy Spirit has said multiple times that there's a lot of hurting people on the other side of addiction and alcoholism, and they don't get a lot of permission to feel the way they feel. Um you you felt a lot.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

I felt a few things.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Yeah, you felt a lot of things. So before we dig in and get heavy, I just want you to finish this phrase. Okay. Okay. Proximity, shapes and sizes. Perspective shapes, decisions. Oh, wait, I just finished the sentence. Never mind. Let me see. What would you say if I said perspective shapes?

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Perspective oh perspective shapes, outcomes.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Okay. Decisions, shape.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

Outcomes.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

Outcomes?

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Outcomes.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Okay. I read this and it reminded me of you. It reminded me of things that you have said to me.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

And it is I feel like I got it wrong.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

You did. Kind of. I mean, outcomes and it's uh collamorous.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

It's like how you think is is how you make decisions instead of how like perspective is like kind of how you think. And how you think is how you perceive the world, perspective, right? And how you perceive the world and how you think about those things is how you make decisions, and that's gonna affect your life. Those are those are outcomes.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Okay. So it was proximity shapes perspective. Okay. Perspective shapes decisions, and decisions shape your life.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Oh, so I just jumped to the end there.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

You nailed it just the what I have taken notes on things that you have said. You've said all those things to me before. I have. And to our children.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Must have been a good day.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Oh no, you say it a lot of days. It is not just a good day. So I've I I feel like I've had the opportunity to learn from someone that is very wise. And so you're in for a real treat today, everyone.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Oh wow. Thanks. Well, that's humbling.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

To jump right in.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

I hope I can live up to the bar.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

You uh you all let me know. Okay. All my all the listeners. Or just keep it to yourself. Shoot me a text. Tell me what you think. When my addiction was at its worst, what was the hardest part for you that you never felt safe enough or strong enough to say out loud to me at the time?

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Oh, it's like this could be something new.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Yeah. It's whatever comes to your mind.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Well, I mean, thankfully we've been really open and honest with each other. And so there is nothing I haven't said that I I wouldn't that have been holding back on. I think that's a key, that's a key thing to this healing, is not just having a safe place. And you've done a very good job of creating that safe place. Like you took some really some tough feedback. And thankfully, through your treatment um experience, they told you like you need to take this and you need to shut up and listen and not argue back. And you did a really good job of that. And so that let me vent, um, not in as like not in as like a shouting at you, but it vented just saying the things that were on my heart. And so there's nothing, there's nothing new. What was the but what was the hardest, the hardest thing?

SPEAKER_00 7:05

The hardest part for you when you didn't feel probably at your strongest point.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

The thing I the thing I think that comes to mind the most is being disappointed when I walk in the door from work and hearing, I could hear within a couple syllables of you saying something that you're off, that you weren't yourself. And that was always such a down, downcresting feeling, right? Like, oh man, I'd really hope tonight would be good. But I knew within, you know, a couple seconds that the night was gonna be a really challenge, a real challenge. And I would sit in the car in the garage sometimes and just take a couple deep breaths and like, all right, good or bad, I don't really, I don't really have an option here. So let's go, let's go see what we're at. And sometimes I walk on the door and it's it's a pleasant surprise. There's my heather, you know, and and the other times I'd walk in the door and I could tell right away that it wasn't you, you know. And I say that for our the benefit of our listeners who are like, but just alcohol. Well, when you're dealing with someone who's an alcoholic and they're an addiction, the brain chemistry changes and yours did too, dramatically, and that your entire personality would change. And so if you know someone who's has this personality that kind of flip-flops back and forth, it could be, you know, bike bipolar. In your case, it was the alcohol would just flip a switch and you would argue with me about whether the sky is blue or not. Or, you know, I can just say something, and your your instant reaction was to to contradict me, you know? And that makes things really challenging when you're trying to be a dad and you're trying to keep a house and you feel the responsibility of raising your kids and telling them no sugar. So if like I say no sugar, you say bah, you know. Yeah, I still kind of do that a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

We're working on that too, still, folks. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

So that pressure to be dad and do what you know is good for your kids, and you've got this force, this entity pushing back on that in the opposite direction, that's a really challenging thing. And so between the two of those, those are the I think those are the those are the hardest things.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

What did loving me cost you personally, emotionally, spiritually, and even professionally during those years?

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Well, you say cost, I think I would change that to gain. Oh boy. Like what did I gain personally and professionally? I mean, I gained a wife. I gained a you know, for the 12 years we've been married. And um, there was a short period where it was really hard, and but we got through it and I got you back. And I got a much better version of Heather than I even than I married. And so also through your vulnerability and your telling and just telling your story and being open and honest about it professionally, it's been a a huge uh multiplier, huge gain in both of our lives. And so I you know, cost would you could say like what did you have to what did you lose? You could just substitute cost for lose. And I look at the other way. What did I like what did I gain?

SPEAKER_02 10:30

And I gained a lot.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

We gained a lot because we persevered, because you persevered, because you made a decision to live and to fight this, and to pretend you're like your gak, your give a crap is very, very high about this, right? So I'm super grateful for that. Cause it if your gak was low, we'd be in a different spot. It'd be a different story. Yeah. Yeah. But both of our gacks are are high.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

So can you give the audience any advice for someone that is married to someone that doesn't have a high gak, a give a crap attitude. And from either the Al Anon side or the alcoholic addiction side, how do you how do you navigate those waters?

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Let's start with a scenario where there's not addiction involved. Because addiction makes everything messy. Like you've got to create addiction like its own siloed thing that has its own set of rules and limitations and um tool sets that you put out of your your tool bag, air quote tool bag, right? For different scenarios. So let's just keep it simple for now and just focus on. I have a spouse who our gacks are off, right? Our giver craps. I I want to learn, I want to grow, I want to do these things, and the other one doesn't. And the first thing you've got to realize is that you can't change someone else. You can't change someone. But you can you can control yourself, and there's great power in that. There's great power in taking responsibility for one's learning and growth. And I think of growth as if there's two bodies, just like in the in the skies, like a a moon and a moon, two moons, right? As one grows, it becomes bigger, so it's gravity that becomes bigger. So where that moon goes, the other one will follow. So as you start your your growing journey, just know that gravity will take the other person along. It's impossible for them not to, right? And eventually you're gonna have an influence. And so you could have influence through your own personal growing and becoming a bigger body, celestial body, so to speak, and growing your gravity. And the other person will be enriched by that. And I think that's one of the most powerful things you can do. So you gotta start, you gotta start there. And then as you grow, like anything I was gonna say after that doesn't matter because you'll know, because you you have grown, you have matured, and you'll know what to do in those moments of frustration. And so that's my biggest piece of advice to anyone who's in that scenario is you keep growing, keep growing and learning it. And it's not this isn't like a for a month. I mean, expect to be growing for the next decades. Yes, yes, and never give up, just never give up.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

There's always something to learn. Always, every day there's something to learn.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

But where does yours come from? Like, is it just one thing you you were born with? Did your parents, military? What kicked your learned spirit into gear to continue to learn? Because it it's changed my life just by being in proximity with you and learning, watching you, um, even kicking and screaming the most of the time. I still I still gravitate towards you and your wisdom every day. So where where does yours come from?

SPEAKER_01 14:27

I I took uh uh aptitude test called The Working Genius by Patrick Lincioni. It's qualifies you the six into six different characteristics. And um curiosity is my is called one of my working geniuses. I'm just naturally curious about things. And also if you go through the what are what is it, the um strengths, strengths finder, right? Learner is in my top five. So a good chunk of that is genetic, you know, so some of it comes naturally for me. So it's I guess it's easy for me to say it's I'm just a natural, natural learner, naturally curious. I was I had popular science and popular electronics on on the on the toilet tank.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Those magazines?

SPEAKER_01 15:24

When I was like 10. Yeah, those are magazines.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Okay, better than a popular thing.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Popular mechanics, popular popular science. My good parents had made sure that was the thing. Popular mechanics, popular science, popular electronics. And these were magazines that you know, before the internet, that I would just browse and look at and and spend time reading. And I remember the time I discovered podcasts. I was living in Orlando going to school, and I had an iPod. And the iPod would hook up to your computer through a cable back in the days. Yeah. And you would connect to i uh iTunes, and iTunes would download podcasts and then transfer it over to your iPod. And I think I was I think I was fixing something on my my Ford Ranger in Orlando, and I was listening to uh the three-part series Focus on the Family, How to Learn Your Husband. Yeah. On my iPod as a podcast. Yeah. And because Focus on the Family was an earlier adopter of podcasts. And I realized how little I knew about myself and relationships. And it like it woke, it woke something up in me. This podcast to me wasn't for me to tell a woman how to treat me. It was more how what do I how do I interpret what I'm feeling so I can give that feedback so I can express it in a way that they might understand? And that to me was like just huge. That um I was feeling certain things, I didn't know why, and now I knew why, and I need to know more. So I've always been a natural learner, I've always been curious, but that I really look at that as a pivotal, pivotal time in my life, like a divine moment where um God sent me down this path of learning about relationships and learning about interactions and what just people relationship, man and woman interactions. And I haven't stopped since.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

So good. Um you know, I as you're talking, I just sit here and I I really, really want more than anything for other husbands and wives to sit across the table from each other and be able to have open, honest conversations. Yeah, we're recording ours so that others can learn and grow from it. But I just sit here and and just admire you as you're talking, thinking, I'll be dang. Like I I was blessed with that. And I know without a shadow of a doubt that that learned spirit that God put in you 10 years before we even met, it was preparing you for for everything that was coming.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

I think so too. I'm really grateful for it.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah, like when I when I talk to the Lord, I I thank him every day for that.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Yeah, me too. Yeah. Had it not been for that, I would not have been prepared. No way. So it would have been a completely different outcome.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

What do you what do you think? There's a lot of younger great couples who they know that they were raised in a good family. They know that uh they have this awesome boyfriend or girlfriend, they want to spend the rest of their lives with them. And they are just like, we're good. We're good. We we're good. We don't need to go to marriage classes and like we love each other. We don't need to read these books. What would you say to them to know their horizon is not going to be everything they thought it would be? What advice would you give them?

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Yeah, when you and I started dating, we set a pretty hard rule. Like we didn't kiss for a long time, right? It was was it Valentine's Day of months later, before I'm like, yeah, it's been long enough.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Yeah, it was a long time. We were having it felt like a long time, especially as adults, because we were adult, you know.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Right. And that was really important. I know that physicality in a relationship can really cloud or muddy the waters, right? It gets complicated. It's really hard to have clear feelings and a clear understanding of how you feel for someone when you're being physical with them. Because physicality can create um infatuation. Infatuation is a strong, sharp feeling that can't that just it goes up and down with storms, right? Like if there's a storm, all of a sudden you don't your heart's really not in saving this relationship because the um infatuation just uh can't survive that. And so you've got to get that out of your relationship if you're not married, so you can fully understand how you feel about the other person. And when you know that even through the hard things that you want to work through them, that I think is a good indicator. Remember when my parents sat us down and said, So what are you guys gonna do when when um when things get hard? And I said, We're gonna work through them. And I meant that because I remember thinking when things get hard, not if, but when, I'm motivated to to make sure that we get through that.

SPEAKER_00 21:00

So do you learn about it as you're going through it, or do you prepare yourself for what is coming?

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Well, yeah, hopefully you're ready for it. Yeah. You know, hopefully you've got some sort of um strong uh wisdom or uh a character that can guide you through those waters, or some lenses that you put on that help you clear see clearly.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

As husband and wife, even from the beginning of our marriage, I wish we would have sat down more and done couples' devotions. I wish we would have been working. Cause it was like you get into life, you're both working, you start having kids, you're married, and then you forget about that you know intimacy is important.

SPEAKER_04 21:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

But we weren't sitting down, we weren't like we were we were on the very beginning, leading part of Netflix. So I'm To point the finger at Netflix. We didn't know what we were getting into.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

That's so great.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

So it was so easy for us to just oh, what a hard day. Let's go see what's on Netflix and go down to the den downstairs and turn on Netflix, right? Yeah. Um, we had cable TV. Didn't use that. And so that was the shiny object, unfortunately, in our lives. That was the deal, that was the default. Just go kind of hang out, especially in cold winter months when there's that much to do. All right, just go downstairs and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

And now there's 15 to 100 more platforms people can tap into for more distraction. And so I encourage any young married couples, even those who are not married and are single and still praying for their soulmate. Learn, learn, read, read how to go into a marriage with the knowledge that you need, the knowledge and understanding of how to do it God's way. Like learn about it, not when you're in it, even before. Parenting, all of it.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

That which interests you the most is what will take your time. And if watching that next series that someone's talking about, or that next episode of a series that you haven't finished, that can be a huge distractor. And next thing you know, it's tomorrow. And then tomorrow is the next day. And so if you know you need to grow, the first step you need to take is you need to put blocks or cancel those things. And men, as leaders of the household, you may have to take some arrows on this. You may have to say with empathy, honey, I think we need to cancel these. I think we need to shut these off. And if there's pushback, then just with empath, with empathy, you've got to navigate those waters. And so that's a good starting point just to figure out, okay, what do I need to do next? You know, I've I've just keyed in on something that there may be an unhealthy addiction here because we can live without Netflix, right? We can live without streaming services. There's plenty of other things to do. But if you get a strong pushback on um, you know, streaming services, then that's probably a signal or a thread that you should pull on. And it's a good sign that there's something to something to work on there. How do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_00 24:31

Well, we did get rid of Netflix, but we did keep a couple of the others. And we have you built a program so that we have the ability to turn it on and off. And so I think options is great. It doesn't have to be an all or none. It can simply be just purging a little bit at a time and just just re-engineering your home a little bit as to what your nights look look like.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

And it's it's been a tension in our in our marriage. There have been times where I want to go downstairs and rip that stupid TV off the wall because I think it's getting overused.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

And that's He's really not that walk down and just rip it off.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

I'm expressing a feeling that I've had of that stupid TV keeps on getting the way of us growing as a family, and I'm so fresh for that TV and I just want to take it off the wall so it's not even an option. Like, so it's not even there, you know. But I also at the same time had to um had to have a lot of empathy for your situation and kind of help you navigate waters too, because the kids become very needy and you have things you want to do. And so, like, that was your way of that was a um a tool that you used to get things done, whatever, right? You know, and so just to rip that out would have had a massive impact on you. And I probably wasn't prepared to step in in those times and be able to shoulder, shoulder that burden because it wouldn't have been good just to just like, okay, there's no TV, now you deal with the kids. I would have had to shoulder a lot of that too. And I don't think I could have done that in those in those times.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

And we do live in a very cold Antarctica weather for four months out of the year, and so we we're kind of locked in our own homes. And so the excuse to cuddle in and watch movies always is great, but we'll move on. When I think back to 2018, 2019, for those of you who do not know our full story, um, please go back to episode one um and and listen to that. You can you can Google and I we've shared our story in multiple, multiple ways. But you know, I think about the moments. Um Let me just I'm just gonna ask the straight question. Were there moments you quietly wondered if staying was the wrong decision? And if so, what ultimately anchored you to covenant instead of convenience?

SPEAKER_01 27:09

Was there times wherever wondered if staying was the right decision? No.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Okay. So what ultimately anchored you to the covenant of marriage, you and I, over the convenience of how often we choose divorce.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

I never felt like there wasn't something else we could try. I never felt like there was we were at the end. You know, we just we re have a friend who just recently filed after like 10 years of trying with her husband. And in that situation, you could probably call it abandonment. And then um the Wesleyan church they consider abandonment one of the one of the um biblical reasons why these there's grounds for divorce, you know. We don't get into that. Just saying it was a really hard thing. And I know we know that she felt um and he felt you know they felt hopeless. I never felt hopeless. I never there was times where I'm like, I don't know what I'm gonna do next, I don't know what the next step looks looks like. I never felt like it wasn't recoverable.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Okay. How did you wrestle with God during that season? Did your faith deepen, fracture, go silent, or all three?

SPEAKER_01 29:01

It's hard when you're asking for something and you're not getting the answer, or your doesn't feel like your request is being answered. You know? And days turn into weeks and weeks turn into months. And for some people, months turn into years. You and I luckily, the hardest part was what, like it's like six, maybe nine months that we went through.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Well, for me, it was lots and lots of years.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

But when it got really bad, the postpartum depression that was 16.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

After Evie, it was yeah, it was actually about 14. It was about 14 to 16 months there. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

You remember it being longer than that than me.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Well, she's she's born in April, and I didn't go to treatment until the following December of 2019. Okay. Okay.

unknown 29:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

I felt every day, and you you probably skipped a week or two here and there trying not to remember.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

But I remember feeling so frustrated. And I was grateful for the uh the the um I was in nine rounds at the time. It was a kickboxing workout, going in with 30-minute workout, high intensity, you're hitting things. And so that was a really good outlet for me. And I remember screaming into our local um green, uh, what do you call it? Like the green uh retake all your long clippings and tree tree branches. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

It's the local dump.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Okay, the local dump. And there's a big pile of trees there, and it's off to the side of the of town, and I just screamed and then I think, why? And I looked up to the heavens, why? What is going on?

SPEAKER_03 30:50

And I felt better.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

I know I needed that release, I needed that ability to shout into into the sticks and at the heavens and just go, come on, man. What the heck? This is not what I signed up for, you know. I'm gonna give my my goldfish analogy, my fish analogy. Is that okay? All right. We used to have a fish tank. I think it's such a weird thing.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

What families have not had a fish tank? Don't do it.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

Used to sit right here, right behind me. And uh, it was like, I don't know, whether it was 20-gallon tanks, quart tank. And I would walk in, I could flip the light on in the morning, and the goldfish would come look at me, right? And he wants something. He's hitting the edge of the of the glass, and he wants something to be fed or something. And I thought of that as to me, I'm that goldfish's quote unquote god. I make the lights turn on and off. I walk out of the room, and it can see in the room, all of a sudden, this thing that feeds me and controls the lights is now gone. And the goldfish has this no con just has a no concept of what I'm doing. That I walk out of this house that was built by other beings like me and get into a car that was engineered over hundreds of years, I mean dozens of years by other human beings, and that it's fed by this petroleum product that we got out of the ground, right? And put into the car. And then we go to go to work and we work on these really hard things, and we eat food and we spend money and we're using technology. Like it just has no concept of that. I walk in, light on, food in the top. Thank you, great being who feeds me. And it just has no idea. It's not even capable of comprehending all the things it takes for the light to turn on and for it to get fed. Now just take that gap. So just put that, like put your hands out some distance apart and say that's the gap between the goldfish intelligence and human intelligence. That much. Now take that same gap and shift it from human to God. When you realize you can't comprehend what God's doing, you can't listen to a million prayers all at once, you can't orchestrate hundreds of thousands and have millions of things all at the same time and have it work. Like we we can't even comprehend. We can't comprehend eternity, we can't comprehend speaking a universe into existence.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

Who am I to question a god like that?

SPEAKER_01 33:59

I'm the goldfish. Who's the goldfish to question me? And when I turn the light off, on and off, or get fed, or change his water. I know it's better for the goldfish.

SPEAKER_02 34:12

And so I didn't love that goldfish.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

So it's not a perfect analogy. God loves us. We're special to him. And so when things are just doesn't make sense, and I think I know better and I would I have opinions about how I would run this this world. Who am I? To question the creator. Because I can't even hold a candle to what he's capable of. So that's good, then that's you know, that's how I reconcile it with not getting answers or like just like I don't get this.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

But I know you hear me because you say you do.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

You say it in your word, and I know you got me, and I know your heart breaks with me. And we live in a fallen world, but it's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

You really do have ultimate trust when it it's it's a beautiful thing. I mean, even the times when you lived in Florida in 2000, end of 2011, and you heard God say go home. You're sitting on the beach.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

Do I have to?

SPEAKER_00 35:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

I know it's cold in South Dakota. Then when you want it, when you realize how small you are and how in how limited in our intellectual capacity and our ability to like do magical things, you know, speak of life into existence, right? It just humbles you so much. And it's okay to say, I don't get it. You can shout, I'm angry at this, this is not what I would have done, this is not how I would have done it. And I think the Lord's looking back and going, Yeah, I know. I know how you would have done it. But there's about a bajillion other things here that you didn't take an account for, including the end times and eternity. So tough.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

From your creator, tough. I love you.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

But you're being arrogant.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

Hmm. I don't think you've ever shared the fish story analogy with me. Do you know that?

SPEAKER_01 36:41

No, never. I like it. Does it work? It's good. Okay, we'll work on it. It's good. We'll see if we can.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

It's that whole I'm hanging on, I'm hanging on, I'm listening, and I know that it's gonna be, it's always that it's coming, and when you hit, it's like, oh, so good. Okay, just gotta be patient. Activate the fruits of the spirit every single morning, and you'd be amazed.

SPEAKER_02 37:06

Hang with me.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

Okay, so so good. Um we were just talking about you never felt like it was ever lost, that there was always something more. And so, what do you wish more people understood about the spouse who stays and the quiet strength that it takes to love without enabling?

SPEAKER_01 37:42

I knew I had the benefit of knowing that I loved you. Right? We had that foundation and that went a long, long ways. And we started having kids, that went a long way too. And my parents are still together. That went a long way. And my um extended family, my parents' parents and their family, all you know, healthy relationships for the most part, and and have a very high emotional IQ and are more responsive than reactive, and have lots of empathy, and you know, it's not gossiping, things like that. So I'm very fortunate in that I had that as my my norm, my normal, you know. And so the chaos that went in our house to me was abnormal. And I was always working to get back to back to normal, like my normal, right? Who knows what it would have been like if I came from chaos, came from reactiveness and from jealousy and spite? Oh yeah, you know, yeah, that would have been my normal. And so would we have just fought as hard hard as we would have, you know? Or would we accepted that as normal? Or would I just said, this isn't funny anymore? You know? I just I just I just don't know. So what was your question again?

SPEAKER_00 39:21

It was what do you wish more people understood about the spouse who stays and the quiet strength that it takes to love without enabling?

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Well, you use the word enabling, which I think is really critical for both spouses. Like it's important that you don't you don't enable me. You have great power in our in our relationship by not enabling me. Like you get you have the right and sometimes the duty to say no to me. I love you, but this is a no. And that's a healthy thing for relationships. Um so understanding of what enabling is, is not something that we're born with, and it's not something they teach on the streaming platforms. And we just learned this, we just learned this from um from your aunt recently. Yeah, Kim. Yeah, she said wisdom won't seek you out. You have to go seek wisdom, right? And so that's this it's no different with enabling. So you hear the word enabling. Okay, what does that mean? Well, that that wisdom isn't isn't gonna seek you out. You need to go find that. There's a great book called Boundaries by Henry, um, Henry Cloud and Townsend. John Townsend. Townsend. John Townsend? Sure. Okay. And um that was a that was a huge book for us. It was a big eye-opener on what is it, what is it to enable? What does it mean to not enable someone? So I think everyone needs to understand what that means and understand how you may be doing it, because you're playing a role in it, aren't you?

SPEAKER_00 41:10

Yeah, there's the the best thing that you taught me or that you even navigated more in action and leadership and showing me versus it's like I'm doing the right thing, which is the hard thing.

SPEAKER_04 41:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

And you're not gonna like it. You don't I know you're not gonna, because it's it's it's going to it's gonna bend the way you've always done things. It's gonna challenge you to have a different perspective.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

And you're gonna have an allergic reaction.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

Yeah, he always says it'll be an allergic reaction. I don't have any allergies. The only allergy I have is when Amos is challenging me to do something different.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

It may look like this with your eyebrows down and your voice very loud, and that's yeah, all right. Take the arrow.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

And it's been the best thing that you've you've challenged me in a kind way. And again, it hurts, so it doesn't feel kind, but kind is clear as kind, and you've always been clear with me, and you've always said, This is like I'm drawing a line in the sand. You're a beautiful butterfly. You've spread your wings, and like I will be here to support you when you fall. And but I I I want to be your number two. So we just gotta remember our priorities are right. So you can and here's the thing: by you doing that, I want to spend time with you. I want to do things with you. I want to, I want to hear the hard thing because I've experienced the outcome of goodness and greatness that comes out of you not enabling me and just telling me what I want to hear. You've never done that. Um maybe back in the day. Never never was a short. Yeah. Um, let's say more more times, more times than most is you are always challenging me and pushing me to to believe in myself and believe in who God created me to be. And it wasn't at the caliber of how I was acting and operating.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

Wow, you said it w way more eloquently than I did.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

I'll have to listen back because I already don't remember what I said.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

That would have been that would have been good. No, I definitely had to, you know, having those kind of conversations wasn't something that came naturally to me. And I definitely had to try, fail, try, fail, try, fail. You know, there were times where I said something and it had a very negative reaction or a negative impact. It was like a net negative result of that because I said it wrong or didn't have empathy, or maybe it was too loud, or it was the wrong timing. Just feel something, right? But it didn't mean I tried. And we've had a lot of lot of times where we weren't really happy with each other when we went to sleep. You know?

SPEAKER_00 44:07

I mean, I love you, but I don't like you.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

Sometimes I'm like, oh, I wish I had said that differently. You know? To your credit, though, you often comes back, you'd come back to the table. Yeah. Right. And we could talk it through the second time around. And um could I just kind of be just real about something that we got got through?

SPEAKER_00 44:26

I can always edit it out if not.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

Well, I run the editor. So that's right.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

One of the things that I'm grateful that we got through was you at one period, and so I'm just saying this for the benefit of our audience. There was a period in time where I'd say something, you would interpret it in a in a one in a certain way. And then you, as my words, would write it in stone, and you would tell me back to me what I meant. And then I would have to spend time and energy just trying to counteract that whole thing. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Yeah, that happened a lot. It happens a lot in a lot of relationships with you say something, I hear it differently, I say it back the way I heard it. And then we're we're it's already a lose-lose.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

And I I remember that turned off like a switch. Uh four or five, maybe four, maybe longer than that. And it hasn't reared up in our and our hasn't come up in our marriage sense. And that was a really key thing to our communication that you don't take my poor explanation of something as in your interpretation of that as this as writing in stone. Yeah. It can be molded and you can ask clarifying questions, and you say, okay, what I heard you say was, and oftentimes it's very personal. Like you took it, you took it in a way that I didn't mean for you to take it. Yeah. That happens that happened an hour ago.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

But the point is, it doesn't turn into this drag out conversation now where you're hurt. You're like, you you have the most like the most generous interpretation of what I said. Yeah. And you're willing to give me the benefit of the doubt. So just giving the other person benefit the benefit of the doubt, trying to work towards a resolution and not working towards prolonging the argument so that you could win the argument. That's been key. Um trying to understand the other person, the most generous interpretation. And you know, massive in our in our relationship.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

It has. That has changed. And also the response of when I hear something that you've said, you're black and white, you're more head thinker than heart thinker, and I'm a heart thinker and more feeling compassion and empathy.

SPEAKER_04 46:36

Right.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

And it's not that you lack empathy or compassion, you're just black and white.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

We just speak a different language.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

Yeah. It's it in it so much a different language. And so I would start to say, okay, what I heard, what I heard you say was, and I have to pause and make sure that I keep my tone tender. Like the one of the sweetest compliments you've ever said is, man, when you talk soft like that, that is hot. Like that, that to me is like we're in the middle of an argument and you're talking softly, your tone. And I'm like, ooh, I gotta work on that more often. So I do, I take note of it. I work, I I deliver my message differently to make sure that it's received versus you. If I come with a sharp tone, your guard goes up and you go into protection mode because it brings back, triggers past ways that I would react. And so we have to be emotionally aware and self-aware of how we're coming across to our spouses, but to our children and to our friends, right? So um something, something early on in our marriage too was it's it's just the shutdown and the silence is not it's not good. So for couples who shut down and blame and point fingers or just do those things, it I highly encourage just to say, hey, I want to really think this through. I'm gonna take a little bit of time, just just know I'm in my head. I'm okay. I just really need to think this through because I want to honor you with my response.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

That's really good.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

We've we've done that.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

You're clearly that's clearly a heart thinker. Those are the words of a heart thinker.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

Well, because if I go with my head, it's it's coming out and it's gonna be sharp and I'm gonna have regret.

SPEAKER_01 48:27

So, as for me, who uh isn't such an eloquent speaker, I would just say, Hey, I'm I'm I'm chewing on something. I love you. I'm not mad at you. I'm just trying to figure something out.

SPEAKER_00 48:39

Yeah. And that to me has that has changed everything for me. I would I didn't do a very good job of that early on in our marriage for the first seven years. You'd go, you'd go silent to process. And then for me, then I'm like, what did I do? What did I say? Where did what's you know, did-da-da.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

And my I would pass each other in the in the house and like it was awkward.

SPEAKER_00 49:01

Yeah. Yeah. So now we just are so open and forthright with what what we're thinking or what we're going through. And it's man, you can use that in business partners, you can use that in all the things. Like the elephant in the room is stupid. Just hey, something you said earlier didn't didn't settle very well. So I'm just working through some things.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Can we come back around or it's a very normal thing for guys to take to need 24 to 48 hours to be able to articulate what they're feeling?

unknown 49:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:32

But yeah, when it comes to sex, you guys know like within two seconds. That's interesting to me. Super easy. Yeah. Like you're hungry, easy.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

One of the things that one of the things now? One of the things I learned in that loving the learning love your husband podcast from focus on the family was how uh my need for respect. Right. And how that can shut me down. And then one of the analogies they used was um a man's heart can be like garage door, garage um, barn doors where they can open them up, but a woman can accidentally, not intentionally, but through her words, accidentally shoot an arrow into that barn and those doors will shut right up.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:15

Right? Just slam shut. And then the guy's like, the guy locks up because the doors are shut, and he doesn't know why he feels the way he does. He just knows he's angry or frustrated or something. And it could take it, it could take time. Women, it could take time for guys to to to parse that through. And so you gotta give them that space and just give them that grace that you know, you may have said something unintentionally, but still had an impact on on your husband. And he's gotta he's gotta process that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 50:48

While you're processing that, while the husband's processing that, it is so important for us as women to not sit and spiral into trying to make excuses or trying to re-explain. Like we just need to come to you and say, Hey, I I am sorry, and mean it and say, I know what I just said hurt your feelings. And I I would really love the opportunity to explain this further. And stay soft in it. Don't try to like that's the other piece, is we come back trying to argue that what you're feeling is wrong. I I did that to you a lot where I was like, it doesn't even make sense.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

And instead, I can just, I don't understand, Dan, but we don't get to tell each other how we how the other one feels. You don't have to tell me that my feelings are wrong. Great. No, we could talk about a misinterpretation and say, okay, so that's miser misinterpretation, but that doesn't give the other person free reign to go do it again. Like there has to be a yeah. Well, I mean, one of the staples that we tell our kids about is when you hurt someone else, whether you meant it or not, you get to own that and apologize for it. That's like um take extreme responsibility for that. Whether it's your was it your fault or not, whether you meant it or not, take extreme ownership of that. Take, I'm sorry I made you feel that way. That wasn't my intent. That then psychologically will help prevent you from doing it again. But now if you point fingers and say you shouldn't have felt that way, high probability you're gonna go through that again. You're gonna do that again.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

Dismiss, it's very dismissive.

SPEAKER_01 52:24

And the other now there is the other person that's still feeling hurt and aren't feeling heard. And that's that will easily perpetuate issues in your marriage and the relationships.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

I want to can we give an example? Because sometimes I feel like we know what we're talking about, but maybe they don't. So if you can think of one off the top of your head, otherwise I have one.

SPEAKER_01 52:47

Yeah, um, after the game the other night.

SPEAKER_00 52:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 52:51

Yeah. So leaving a basketball game with our kids. And um, I'm working to get all the kids in like they're you know, they're like herding cats. We're trying to get us out the door because late at night, and and it's hard to get them out the door anyways. And and I had a strategy that I thought was if we do this thing now, it will help us for the next 10 games too. Now I I'm not gonna sit there and explain it to you because you've got things going on, you're talking to people, whatnot. And so I was trying to get us one direction, and and you thought I was gonna leave or walk out and leave Evie. And so you had a reaction to that. To me, that was that was and then include like an angry look. To me, that was an angry look in front of a large crowd. Now, I don't know that anyone saw that or not, but I had that feeling that I just had my wife snap at me in front of a bunch of her friends. Men especially don't like being criticized in front of their friends. That's a huge one. So, like, as when we we we have people in our circle where the wife criticizes the man and is I just look at it and go, gosh, you have no idea. She criticizes her her man right in front of other people. And she just has no idea the damage that she's causing.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

And if if you find yourself listening to this and you have done it, please know we all do. It's a matter of being self-aware and honoring your husband and lifting him up in front of people is so important. As wives and as husbands, we are the billboard of our of our marriage, of our of our spouse. And it's the person that we love and we live with, and they're our best friend and our biggest advocate. So why would we not want to speak highly of them and love them? Um, and so in those heated moments, we've all snapped. So I just want to shed light on that of like, don't feel guilt. Have that be something that ignites you to want to do it differently going forward because it really does. I've I have shut Amos down very quickly because I have been around snappy criticizing, you know, like who you are around and how you were raised and what you've witnessed and how I mean, like we all have our own circumstances on what is programmed or innate in us. Like we have the ability to rewire and to to re-engineer the way that we do a lot of this in life. And so when I did that, what Amos didn't know, and he did maybe knew, but since I'm with the kids more often and I take them a lot of places, just me are two littles or really scared about getting lost or being left. They have like this extra bit of fear that we're working through about being lost or left somewhere. And so as he was walking away, I was like, we can't leave. Like, we can't, because Abby's gonna turn around and I won't be in her eyesight and she will freak out like she did the last game. And so I was being extra sensitive to the kids and he was leading the house. And we had two different motives for very good reasons from both sides, but my reaction was was it could have been done differently.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

Yep. So when we got home, I just said, Hey, you had a pretty strong reaction to that. You really snapped at me back there, and you kind of looked at me wide-eyed and went, I did. Yeah, yeah, I yeah, you did. And to your credit, you said, I'm sorry, I just I just that wasn't my intent. I didn't mean to do that. You explained the whole every thing. And I explained, Yeah, I get that. I was thinking about something else. Yeah, and I just wanted to show us moving towards the door because they're looking at us, and then they would just naturally come to us because they see us leaving. I was actually gonna walk the door, you know? And that was just a perfect example of just hey, FYI. If you don't, if you don't notice this happened, and then you just sort of like, yeah, sorry. And it was over.

SPEAKER_00 56:57

Yeah. It was done.

SPEAKER_01 56:58

That's the other piece, is like we talked about it for 30 seconds. It was done. Move on.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

Yep. And I didn't excuse it. I didn't I recognized how it made you feel. I owned it and said, I didn't even realize that I did that. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. The best thing we can do is is just have those little 30-minute interactions so we can improve for the next time that I don't mean to snap.

SPEAKER_01 57:24

And now and now I'm more empowered to lead those situations because we talked it through. Yeah. Um, couples, they're I forget who I don't know who said it, but they said, uh, and every man is a king and a fool. The one you speak to is the one you'll see.

unknown 57:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:43

I've seen I've seen women turn men into boys, and I've seen women turn boys into men. I don't think women understand the power that they have. And most of the time they don't realize the kind of power that they're wielding. And with wisdom won't seek you out, you have to go seek it. You won't know until it's too late the impact you're having on your marriage. And so, you know, the Bible says that the man is the spiritual leader of the house. It doesn't mean that women don't have a metric crap ton of, I want to say, control, their power in their marriage. And I think it's one that's highly underestimated and underrated. In the same way, I forget how powerful my voice can be and the impact it has on the kids. Women oftentimes misunderstand how powerful their voice can be on their marriage and on their kids. And so it behooves them and it's mutually beneficial for them to for them to have a high gap about that, uh I give a crap about that and start to grow in that and make amends. And you know, you could always find excuses or reasons for why not to do that. I define excuses as things that would short circuit greater wisdom. So let's just say there's two things. Like on a scale of one to ten, you've got things A, like I need to respect my husband. That's a thing, that's a that's a thing that he needs. Like you and you need to feel loved. So those let's put those as a 10, right? Let's go one to ten. Those are a 10 that need to be accomplished. But he does or she does this one thing. Okay, so now let's rate that one thing. Rate it less, it's probably less than a 10. It's probably not a 10, maybe to rate it as a five. An excuse nullifies that 10 with the five. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 59:41

Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_01 59:42

Like, why would you prioritize, but yes, it makes sense. The five-level thing over the ten-level thing. But we do that as humans, and I call those excuses. So what you might think is a reason is actually an excuse, and you're getting your priorities wrong. You're prioritizing the five over the ten. And when you keep the ten the priority and give that some time. It's amazing how those five things will just start to fall off.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:15

Do you have an example? Is it what we just talked about?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

Like, can you it's you know, as a head thinker, mostly a head thinker, it's pretty easy for me to prioritize what's a ten and what's a five, right? Yeah. The heart is much more emotional and it's not so logical. It's really emotion fed. And so something may feel like a five, or that thing that's a five may feel like a ten to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:45

I think I've had some of those and I've talked with you about it.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:49

Like something that we're trying or that I'm working on is prioritizing and being very intentional on keeping my priorities right. And it's very hard as someone who loves people and wants to be there for people to prioritize people over what's behind my four walls. Yeah. We've had that, we've had this, and that's and it's it's unfortunate that someone in that mix usually can get dropped. Right. So you've helped me in asking you like this thing is coming up in April, and then this is coming up. There's a few things that I'm a little nervous about XYZ. And then I give you the opposite the floor, the opportunity to say, Yep, you're taking on too much outside of outside of us. Remember, you know, so you really help me kind of navigate those things because we have open dialogue versus me just running.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:47

Passion is going to be a shiny object, and that shiny object can lead you away from what's really, what really matters. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:53

Yeah. And that's a big piece of Fortitude Ministries and what we is making sure that we get that.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:58

That's a great example, actually. When you look at Fortitude Ministries and what we're trying to do, it's a noble cause, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:05

And it's easy to prioritize that over family. So it's easy to make Fortitude Ministries the 10 when our kids maybe need home, need, need work or help with with schoolwork, or we they need to do chores because that's part of their development. And our calling is to be parents and to nurture our kids and raise them up in the way that they should go. And so that to me is like that's the 10. Parenting and nurturing our kids is our 10. Then you look at our ministry and go, but gosh, we're helping people. And I just need to get this one more email out, you know? And so you could call that a reason, but you can also call an excuse where the five becomes a 10. And you get those out of order tomorrow. What's tomorrow look like now?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:49

It's we're in this right now. Like we're in it. Like that is a thing that we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:57

No, I it's it's just how I think about how I think about these things. And I think other families, as heart thinkers, it's so easy to like things that aren't that important, aren't the tens in life to become tens, right? And I kind of think of okay. This might sound harsh. There is a real need for heart and for empathy. Jesus had a huge heart. If you just go off heart, I think the heart's kind of an idiot. Right? The heart really sees one thing right in front of it, it feels very strongly about it. And it's easy for the heart to forget about the other things. Jesus calls it um um leaving the 99 for the one. Right? Yeah. I I took off about it because it's such a beautiful thing. It is not applicable that in a lot of situations. And so then I don't know, they just move that thought from the heart up your body into the head. Now the head will say, but that's that's 99. Forget about the one. We got 99 other over here. And so Jesus, so there's some in between, right? And I call that in-between the Holy Spirit. Jesus was the perfect example of a head and a heart thinker. He knew exactly what to do in those situations. Now you are more of a heart thinker, I'm more of a head thinker. And so I can't I have to rely on you, I have to get feedback from you on the heart-like things. But also, I have to listen to the Holy Spirit, I have to listen to God's prompting and what to do in every single situation because He's the ultimate to how to get those those two, that balance correct.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:52

Did I answer your question? Did we get off topic? I forget what the question was.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:56

No, I was just stuck in a moment and had to finish it there for a second. When you know, I came in with my agenda, and I really loved where the Lord took the podcast because I really wanted to focus in and talk about the addiction because it's so prominent right now. And I wanted to the audience to really hear the side of addiction that is often forgot about, and that's the person on the other side of it. I'm working with several families right now where I am speaking specifically to wife, husband, daughter, whoever's on the other side, and they have a lot of hurt and a lot of pain because now, you know, someone's gone through treatment and they're doing better and they're processing and they're going through healing and all this stuff. But then the one who is not, who didn't go to treatment, who could have used a break themselves. And the it's it's not a Available to them because they just have to move on. And they just, okay, well, that person's getting better or could potentially have a relapse. And now here I am with all of this pain and hurt and trauma and past stories that I can remember that happened directly to me. How do you what is your I because I want to I wanted to hit that question for sure because it is, I probably get that every other day from someone. What do I do to heal? So we've we're we're we're past a lot, we've done a lot of healing, we've moved through a lot. And I know everything we've talked about today, that is it's an answer. Because it's about growing together, communication, open dialogue, helping one another, not enabling. I mean, we talked about all of that. And it, whether you have uh a marriage without any adversity, it's that's beautiful. But how are you preparing for when it does come? Because it I really believe that we don't we don't get out of this time here on earth without something, you know? And so, but what would you say to the Al Anon side or the the the one who feels left, who feels like they're just sitting in their own muck, not able to move on from all of their hurt and their pain?

SPEAKER_04 1:07:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:33

And he gave you He gave you a guide on how to do life. It's called the Bible.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:44

That is the creator of the universe who was involved in your conception and gave you a spirit. That is his that is his love language to you on how to do life and how to have relationship with him. And so just know that that relationship is one of the most important things, it is the most important thing that you can have.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:20

And if you find yourself defaulting in your decisions to scrolling, or you're defaulting to streaming videos, staying busy, yeah, like all of the other things just to not process the feeling.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:42

Yeah, or just to make that to make a step, you know, to make space. And and I was talking earlier about how you have to let God speak to you in these moments because life is a very complicated equation. Then you try to fix one variable and then another variable is adjusted, just as a math guy. That's how I think about it, right? And um, we're not good at we're not very good at that. And so in this day and age where your head can be so noisy because it's so easy. And you know, the devil is after your attention, he's after it. You've got to make space, and so you can just make one small step in your life. Um, figure out what your why is. What's the thing that gives you resolve to fix this thing in life? And um, write that down. What's my why behind this? And then figure out how to I can resolve to doing this. Run it on your mirror, tattoo it on your hand, whatever. Just so that it you if it matters so much to you, you can fix it and God can help you. So you start with start with there, Lord, this is the thing I want it fixed. Will you help me do this? And you start taking some steps. I look at it as the walk with Christ is um, I'm gonna put my foot down. So I just think of myself walking along the beach. I'm gonna put myself my foot down. I'm gonna put that down, and you may not guide that to the left or the right, but it's okay. I'm gonna put it down. And I'm gonna take another step and another step. And eventually you're gonna move my foot to the left or the right. And now I'll be on a slightly different trajectory, right? Different path, right? There's steps behind me, and now there's more steps in front of me, and I'm I'm no longer walking straight. I'm kind of just on this different path. And I trust that God does that to me. But I I start by just starting, by going. But resolve to make space in your life. Uh, I encourage you to make pausing and listening your default rather than just reacting immediately. This is something I'm learning. This is kind of like my thing right now, is to is to not lean on my own wisdom and think I think I know the answer to something because life is just too complicated. Otherwise, you'll end up playing whack-a-mole, nail this one, another one just pops up. So pause and reflect and let God speak into you and just give them that space. How could things not get better if you do those simple things? If you need to cancel Netflix, screw the series. You know what I mean? That series is not gonna fix your life. Like, why is that so important?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:37

It's avoidance. I we gotta call a spade a spade because I'm guilty of it too. Where it's like life is busy and we just wanna just shut down because we're on all the time as husband and wife and parents and running. So it's the one thing that puts us into a different state. Yeah, like where you just it was drinking for me. Some people turn to living other people's lives by scrolling and admiring other people, which causes comparison and causes you to spiral and causes anxiety. Yeah, it's like so everything you're saying is the answer.

unknown 1:12:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:09

And yet we excuse the other.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:13

If you've got if you haven't watched the season finale and you intend to finish that, your chances of succeeding in this resolve are low. If you can tell yourself, I'm not gonna watch that, or I won't do it until A, B, and C, so maybe it's months down the road that I'm not you're gonna watch that season finale, you have a much higher probability of success. Yeah. If you let that show control you, and it is, that show that show has control over you, and you expect tomorrow to be just like today. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:56

Well, fortitude audience, I have more questions, but I think that's a really beautiful place to wrap it up. If you want tomorrow to look different, you have to do something today. Betterment of yourself, because you can only control yourself. And stay focused in on your relationship with Christ and carving out space so that He can give you His wisdom and direct your footsteps to exactly where you're supposed to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:28

I just don't have a t-shirt. Screw the series.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:34

Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:35

Forget the series.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:36

Oh, choose you, choose you over that. Yeah. Amen. Um we have a lot of wonderful things coming up, and Amos is a really big part of that. We have a wonderful miniseries that is gonna be coming out with Paul Tenhaken. We have a lot more guests that are gonna be coming out. Um, different, so many more stories in 2026 and beyond. So continue to subscribe, continue to um just tune in, reach out. We have all of our social media. We're gonna have some events coming up. We have our first annual women's summit coming up. It's a faith summit downtown Sioux Falls. It's on May 8th. It will be during the day. So take off work, find a sitter, whoever's kids are in school, then just drop them off, come straight to the ransom, and we'll get you out of there in time to pick up your kids as well. No excuses. Come and learn and grow and build community. That is what fortitude is all about, is we really just want to be here as an encouragement and a tool for you to learn how to live an abundant life. And that includes your marriage. It includes parenting, it includes being radically obedient and intentional in your everyday life. All right.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:00

No, no, I think I'm done crying.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:04

Told him. I got through it without crying.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:08

We love you all.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:09

Love you. You got this.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:12

Thank you so much for listening. We want to change lives through this podcast. And if you want to support this podcast or our guests, please see the links below for our Patreon and giving links.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:21

And like and subscribe, and also share our podcast as much as possible. Thank you.