SPEAKER_02 0:00

Here comes a sun do.

SPEAKER_03 0:06

Here comes the sun to say it's all right. Well, hello, fortitude audience, and thank you so much for joining us today. We are delighted to have you here. My name is Heather Kittelson, and I am your host, joined by my incredible husband, Amos, who is our co-host.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Hi.

SPEAKER_03 0:34

And today we have Deb Hadley with us.

SPEAKER_04 0:37

Hi, Deb. Hi. So honored to be here with the two of you. Like I feel like I'm sitting in the living room with my best friends. That's how it's supposed to feel.

SPEAKER_03 0:46

Nice. And uh we are divine sisters. You are my older sister, which we didn't even know existed until this last year. Uh we have uh a you have a cousin and I have a best friend since 2009 that was sitting in this living room right here and said, I think I need to introduce you to my cousin Deb. I think she would be great to have on your podcast because her story is like no one else's. And um when we met and you were you were our keynote speaker for our I Am Fortified event this last year, or I shouldn't say this last year, just in August. And you blew the socks off of every single woman and daughter in that room, Deb. Um, there are still so many of the guests that have reached out and who have said that you, your story makes them believe that there is a God. And so I'm just so grateful to know you. I'm grateful that you share your story as often as you do. Um, and so I am just delighted for our audience to get to know you and to hear your heart, hear your story. Um, so I'd like to start with who is Deb Hadley today? And then we will jump into your story from years ago.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Who is Deb Hadley today? That's a fully loaded question. It is. Yeah. You know, um, Deb Hadley today is much different uh than the Deb Hadley uh would have been almost, well, almost 13 years ago, 12 and a half years ago. And so uh who I am today, I first and foremost, I am just a lover of the Lord in every way. And I know that I have been charged with the task to testifying to the good news of God's grace wherever I go. And uh to share, like you said, that my story helps people believe that there is a God. And um He has uh just taken all of my pain and just brought such great purpose. Um, he has the more I've poured into him, he has poured into me in ways that I never thought possible. And I just feel so strongly that if this can happen in my life, that it can happen in anyone's life because it's available to everyone. Uh, but it really has to be a surrender and an opening up your heart and stop questioning why, if only uh how come and just say and be available. And I just came to the point in life where I was so stripped that I had to uh say, okay, uh I can't sit in this misery anymore, Lord. I'm all yours. And I dug in with everything I had to find him. Uh I have been consistent and persistent. I have asked, seeked, and knocked and busted the door wide open. And uh through that I share that with others. Um, I am um so humbled to be an inspirational speaker. And I've traveled all over the country doing workshops and speaking to audiences that uh finding joy, purpose through suffering, that you're not uh your circumstances don't define you. And I think one of the biggest messages too uh is that um when we are so dependent on people and our successes and our things and our performance, uh, that that is all going to fall and be crushed on you someday. And when that happens, you really need a strong foundation because I've been there, done that. So have you. And uh, and then also I am uh the founder and CEO of KT Humble Hearts. It's a grief support uh service, and we uh help people through grief, whether it's grief of a lost of a loved one, that is my specialty because that's what I have lived. But also, there's grief and divorce and estrangement and other hard things in life. So we do one-on-one grief support. We also do um grief support uh groups and like losses, whether it's a suicide grief or a spouse grief or a loss of a child or a parent. We do those nationwide. Some in person in Alexandria, Minnesota, where I live, but the majority is online all over the country. And the most beautiful thing is that we don't charge anything, we have we pay it forward. And we have we're we we're a nonprofit and we've been blessed over and over by people supporting our ministry. And um, I feel like I live uh with so much purpose in what I'm doing, and I'm so grateful and so joy-filled despite all the hardships, and it just it comes from uh being anchored in the Lord. So that's me now. That's all what I'd have to say. Oh man, plus a grandma and all that good stuff, too.

SPEAKER_03 5:47

Yeah, and married to a wonderful man.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Yeah, I married to my husband Scott, and this is uh, so we we have a blended family, and so it's a his, hers, and ours. Scott and I have been married for 32 years, and in our um family, I brought Kaylee in uh when she was five, she is from my first marriage. Um, Tyler is ours together, and then Josh, uh Josh and Jesse are his two children, and they were seven and nine. And so when they came into my life, and I consider them we used to, you know, I would say my stepchildren, and they would be like, we'd prefer to be called bonus. And I think that's what's beautiful is like I'm a bonus mom, they're my bonus kids, because I always want to give credit to their mother because I'm not the biological mother, but I can be a bonus. And uh our kids always blended in as um siblings, and it never felt like it was his, hers, and ours that they blended together. So um, and yeah, and Scott and I are still married today, and uh when I feel like our marriage, when you have loss in life, often people say that marriages can fall apart, which they really can. But when you turn your life over to the Lord and He becomes your focus and you choose to serve Him and love Him more than your spouse, more than your children, more than anything else, then you can that love radiates onto others. And it's just enriched our marriage in such a way that I'm so grateful for through tragedy, honestly.

SPEAKER_03 7:22

Yeah, it they that is a true statement, Deb, and you know it in all of the work that you do, but it's it's either or, right? Like it I've and so I'm grateful to know that you guys dug in and stayed together, cascata. I haven't met him before, but he's a wonderful man. Yeah, um, so Deb, you you the the his, mine, and ours, can you share with us about yours, please?

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Yes, I certainly can. And so really that is um it it's through my story and through my losses that um through such great tragedy that so much beauty has come through all the the ashes and the hardships. And so the my story starts up with my daughter Kaylee, and Kaylee graduated from college in Minnesota, and uh she uh was 21 years old and she had suffered from an epileptic seizure and uh started our um world of epilepsy, and it really didn't seem like a big deal. Uh, we had been doctoring, and I would always say, Gosh, she seizures long and hard, and uh I'm afraid she's gonna stop breathing. And I was told by two different neurologists that yeah, that that's not gonna happen. I mean, the chances of that are, you know, are not gonna happen. And it wasn't something that really scared us. Her seizures were controlled by medication. And um, when she was 24 years old, she was a well, she had been a teacher down at Martin County West. Got a little fly. I do. I do need the fly zapper, Heather.

SPEAKER_03 9:03

Fly zapper.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Yeah, get it, be a boss.

SPEAKER_03 9:05

Yeah, I have to grab a fly sweater, otherwise, it's gonna be the entire time. So keep going, Deb.

unknown 9:12

Come on.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

You think this is recorded? Seriously, it's dive bombing me. He's probably mad at me for killing all his friends. I know it. He's getting back at you. So um gosh, sorry, Debbie.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Well, dang. Okay, I gotta think of what I was told. Oh, so then Keely became, she was an English teacher down at um Martin County West in Sherburn, Minnesota. She was really at the prime of her life. She was teaching school, she was engaged to be married. And on June 5th, 2013, she was moving home to live with us. Uh, she had resigned her job, which was really hard for her because she absolutely loved it. Um, she was going to teach summer school in Sleepy Eye, Minnesota, where we were living. And then she was going to uh get married and move to the cities and live happily ever after. And she's gonna have two kids, Kendall Mary and and Lucas Jeffrey. And I was gonna be with her in the delivery room. You know, like we had life, was just planned out really, really, really nice. And then um on June 5th, 2013, the day that she was supposed to move home and be with me for the next like five months, um, she didn't come home that night and Kaylee died of uh an epileptic seizure. Um, she was in her apartment. She must have laid down to take a nap because her seizures were nocturnal. And so that meant like they didn't really occur until she woke up or was even awake for like five, 10 minutes. And so she must have laid down to take a nap. That particular day, she had her last teacher workshop day. They had a huge going-away party for her. Uh, she was out with her friends, uh, all the teacher friends celebrating. She came home to pack up because she was moving home and she must have laid down and then went into a seizure and died of something called pseudop sudden unexpected death from epilepsy, which is exactly what I feared. Um, and that it was sudden and uh unexpected, and she basically went into cardiac arrest and didn't come out of it. And um, the the whole story in it is um really uh sad and scary because that particular night that it happened, um, I had called her girlfriend, Mary, got a hold of her, and Mary had gone to Kaylee's apartment and told me that she, that Kaylee was in the apartment and that she was in the bathroom uh and that she must have fainted and she was calling the ambulance. And so we were going to meet her at the hospital. And then on the way down, and I was just praying that everything would be, you know, like she would be okay, you know, like frantically praying. And um, I received a phone call from Mary. And when I answered it, it was a police officer on the other end of the phone, and he said, asked me if I was Kaylee's mom. And then he just told me she didn't make it. And uh, it's such a horrific thing to hear. I mean, you can't, you know, when they say in grief you go into shock. I mean, it was so horrific. You can't even fathom, you know, what that means. And uh I think the scariest thing for me is how dark I went and how I uh I like, well, where is she? And where's God in all this? And does he even know this is happening? And then um I'm I I'm Catholic and I grew up a cradle Catholic, and so um I was very like, this is what we do, these are the rules, and this is what we do. And I just showed up in church and I didn't realize, like I almost thought, did they make it up? Did they make it up? And now I'm and and I really questioned my faith and where he was, and um, and it was really dark, and then I moved into a space of um a feeling uh guilt, shame, regret. If only I would have, I could have, I should have. There's so many things that I wished that I would have done differently with her that I can't do, that I can't fix, that I can't go back to. And um, and I felt God was punishing me. And not only did I feel like He was punishing me, I felt like I deserved it. Like this is what you get when you're bad. Um, and it all stemmed back. This is my second marriage. Um, I had left my first marriage. It was me. Um, I made some, you know, decisions that were uh just morally challenging, uh, just to be self-serving. And um that I stuffed it down. And um we had such a great life. I always thought, wow, like God, you know, has uh rewarded, you know, loved us so much and rewarded us so greatly, despite, you know, despite all of this. And then I almost felt like it caught up to me. And now I'm being punished. And so when you're grieving, and then you feel that you're being punished by God or even questioning his existence, um, it is all debilitating and consuming. And that's where I was, and just a pile of muck, of darkness, and um, grief is what happens to you when something happens that you didn't ask for. It's painful. Whatever it is you didn't ask for this, this is what it is. And it's uh an internal reaction that happens that you don't control. So you can say to someone, well, if that happened to me, well, if that happened to me, well, I'll tell you, when it happens to you, you'll know how it will be. And for me, um, you know, I always thought if I lost a child, and I think we all think that, that if, you know, you lose a child. Um, one of Tyler's friends died when he was six years old. And I just remember saying, if I were the mom, I'd jump in. Like you might as well just bury you. If that happened to me, I couldn't survive. You might as well just bury me. So, right there, that tells us that my whole existence lies in my children, and that that that's my identity. And that's what I that's what I've already said. I've already claimed it. I'm not going to live. And now it happens. So I've already, I'm already in that mode of not living. And I tell you, I everything shut down. I mean, I couldn't eat, I couldn't drink, I couldn't sleep. The guilt, the shame, the regret. And I think even her growing up, sometimes with, you know, daughters, there's friction. And all I could think about was every time that I wasn't supportive, or I got mad at her, or we were fighting about something so dumb. And then I was just like, I'm a bad mom. And then when I divorced her dad, you know, I was in my early 20s, and I, you know, was so into my own issues that I, when she would be upset or cry, I would almost be more like, you know, like stop versus like grabbing her and just saying, oh my gosh, you know, like I'm so sorry, and and giving her that empathy she deserved. But I also like we had such a beautiful relationship. And um, but after uh she passed away, I was so guilty that she didn't get to live with her dad. And it's just all this stuff ran through me. And uh um it was consuming. And then the um the great desire to not live. Um, and boy, when you're knocked down and when you're not taking care of yourself and you don't want to live, oh Satan, he just attacks in such a way and tells you that you are and where's God in all this? And it's just it was it was all consuming. And um I in my, you know, I I think like that faith of a mustard seed, you know, like that little bit, it's like I like I I knew like I've been raised. I'm so grateful that I was raised in the faith because I'm like I knew that he was a good God, and I knew that I could, I was, I was dying on the vine. And so I just would pray to him on my knees, like I I don't know how to pray to you, and I don't know even know what to say, but I need so much help, like I need so much help, and I think what's uh amazing is the way that he has sent help to me through other people in other ways. And the first person who came to me was this uh, she was a phone call that I got from this gal named Chris, and I really credit her for really saving my life because I have to tell you, I was surrounded by love, I was surrounded by support, I was surrounded by prayer, and everyone wanted to help me. So it's not like I didn't have the support. And what she when she called me and left a message, she wanted to come to my house on the following Tuesday and bring a meal. Oh, oh, and take me out to eat. And I wanted to know if that would work. And I didn't leave my house. I couldn't live beyond, like I was living hour by hour. I didn't think I'd be alive next Tuesday, and I didn't eat and I didn't leave the house and I had anxiety and fear, thought God was punishing me. And there was something about her that I knew. I knew her from the 4-H program. She was a 4-H mom and I ran the 4-H program, but I hadn't seen her for like six years. But what I did know, the story that I did make up in my head about her, was that I knew that she was a very faith-filled, strong Catholic woman. I knew that she had seven children, and I knew that it was all done perfectly with natural family planning. I knew she homeschooled all of her kids way back in the early 2000s, right? And so, and uh, they didn't have cable TV, they didn't have iPads. In my mind, you know, they did they prayed every night together, they um they they did every for they were perfect. Their their daughters wore those little purity rings, and like they were like the spot-on perfect family. I'm divorced, God is punishing, my daughter's dead, and I am a heathen that shouldn't even be living. And she, I don't want her to come, honestly. I I so I ignored her. And if she tells the story, there was such an anointing on her, like when the Lord, when he pummels you or the Holy Spirit hits you, and she felt it. And she didn't even know if I was a Christian, she didn't know any, we weren't friends, and she called again. And the second time she called, she was going to come over on Tuesday and bring a meal. Would I be available at noon? And I did not want to see her. I just didn't want to hear about her perfect life when I'm falling apart. And then the third time she called, and I'm so grateful, she said, I'm coming on Tuesday, I'll be there at 11. I'm bringing a meal, I'm gonna knock on the door. If you don't answer, I'll leave it outside. It was just like, and I text her and said, Okay, I mean, I okay. And on her side, she's coming over. What am I gonna say to this woman? I don't, I mean, she she admired me because I worked with all the kids, I worked with the program. So she knew me. We had, you know, she I, you know, she knew me that way, but not on a personal level. She hadn't lost a child, and here she was praying out the car before she came in. But the biggest thing is like when she came into my house, like she said, um, the Lord has really asked me to come and pray with you. You know, do you you accept that? And I gotta tell you, like, I knew he did. I knew he did because she was so special. She was so different, she was different than anybody I knew. And I thought, what a gift to be so different. Before I thought, oh my gosh, like she's like such a Bible banger. Thank God. Like I'm a Bible banger. I I want to be a Bible banger. I want people to say she's different, like the spirit of the Lord is within her. And she and I knew that he sent her. And you know, she asked me two things that were so critical that the first thing is she didn't know Kaylee, so she asked me about her and to be able to talk about your person. And I was gonna say too, like people, like funerals and celebrations of life, sometimes people were like, Well, they didn't want one. Well, you know what? It it is not closure in any way, it busts open the mourning process. Morning is getting stuff out of you. So when you have a funeral or a celebration of life or awake, and kids from her school come in and tell you like how she changed their life, how they loved her so much, and you find out all these stories, it it helps them to process and heal. It helps me to process and heal, and it's so beautiful. And when she asked me about Keely, that is morning. I could dump it, I could get it out and talk about her, and it just lit me up. And the second thing she said was probably one of the boldest things she could have said to me. But she said, um, I've seen many people grieve in my life, but never. I mean, like, seriously guys, I could I couldn't even walk around the block. I was so sick. I was so dehydrated. I had been to the doctor, I thought I broke my ribs. I was on Viking. I was on any, I was on uh ambient for sleeping. I was on, and they would have given me anything because they felt horrible for me. Uh, but I was really falling apart. And uh, and she said, I've seen people grieve before never, like as dependent. As how you're grieving. Is there anything other than Keely's death that is holding you back? I got to tell you, like that, all that is complete empathy. You know, there's sympathy and there's empathy. And sympathy is from a distance. Sympathy is beautiful, but sympathy is really like here's a card and here's a memorial, and here's a hot dish, and here's a plant and a wind chime. Call me anytime. I'll be here for you. You know, that is sympathy. Or, you know, like I guess God, you know, He only takes the best and He needed another angel. And you know, like all those things that, you know, people do to give you to, and I realized that I got that everywhere. People loved me, people were giving me stuff, and I was being buried. And part of the reason I was being buried is I was being so loved. And I was thinking, you know, I'm such a rotten person. If you knew really who I was and the things I did and that God is punishing me, you would not be giving me these things. So you would not love me this way. So I mean it was like self-condemnation. Um, and Satan was just powerful in me. And then when she asked me that question, I realized that I'd never worked through that grief from my divorce. I'd never worked through those hardships. So I shoved him down. I shoved him down really in acts of service and works. Like I was the one, like I organized the booster club. We had people over all the time. I ran the Pep Fest, like anything in the world, like you know, like, you know, I'm a good person. Like everything I did, I'll tell you, it was, you know, Heather, it was dang good. And all these accolates coming in to make me feel good, uh, because I stuffed that down. And it was when she asked me that, it was as if a like a uh volcano just blew my head off and it just poured out. And I just shared my story with her, and I just shared all this heart, and then I'm I'm just like all the things, and like I'm just not a good person. And this is, and I just, oh my gosh, it was just uh horrific. And I was telling it to like a saint, you know, like to a perfect person. And I thought that when I was over that, she would be like, Oh yeah, you know, I yeah, and I just can't even tell you the love, you know, like that she had for me. And she, the first thing she said was, she goes, Oh, so you're not perfect. And I was like, What? She goes, Deb, everything you do, everything about you, like everything, this almost like a facade of perfection, and you're not perfect, just like the rest of us. She like, Deb, you're a sinner, like the rest of us. No sin is greater. Oh my gosh, God just loves your repentant heart. And she really just allowed, gave me that space and shared his forgiveness and his love of me. And in that, like, I the way she talked of him, like I knew she loved him with all of her heart, with all of her mind, all of her soul, like everything in a way that I didn't even know was possible. And then like the magic really occurred, and this is crazy. Um, like I was in so much physical pain from I always say it was like from my pubic bone all the way through. I lost my voice for like so long, but it was so painful. Everything just like Charlie Horst. And she wrapped her arms around me. She prayed this such amazing prayer that I was gonna dump all the pain, all the shame, all the guilt, everything that's holding me back, everything. And I was gonna dump it at his feet because I couldn't carry it anymore. And I just I could just see, I could just feel it. And I I felt it like I felt it moving. I felt it dumping like the healing power, the true supernatural healing power of prayer. And I felt it. And then um I I like I felt almost like a heat of like, I feel like that would be like the Holy Spirit just like embraced me and just wrapped his arms around me. And it was like, oh my gosh. And like she provided me with so much hope that I I realized like I cannot live on my own, and that there was something so much more bigger and powerful and so much more amazing that I needed to tap into. And it was really the start of a complete conversion, transformation of who I am from what I watched, what I read. I got so much help. I went to a Christian counselor, the Christian counselor, he was so great. He said to me, because of course I'm, you know, dumping on him, and he said to me, he goes, you know, if uh, like because I felt like I went out of bounds, you know, these are the rules, and I went out of bounds, and now I'm condemned to hell and to a life of misery. And he said, you know, Deb, um, if God told you not to put your foot on that rug, and then he took a great big sledgehammer and he smashed it, he goes, I certainly wouldn't follow that God. And there's just the love of the Lord and not the condemnation of the Lord. And I realized that I had religion. I did not have a relationship, I had rules, but I did not have faith in believing, and I did not go to church and dig into his word because out of love for him, and that my prayers were a lot about asking, and then, you know, uh that unconditional faith of, will I trust you no matter what? Absolutely, until you don't answer the prayers that I want you in the way that I think they should be. And then where are you? And I think that's a big misconception in our faith is that, you know, I in my grief work, I found that people are like, I follow God, I went to church, we were the model family. Everybody said, like, we are, and then this is how he treats us. And it's like, oh, well, then it's just on performance, and it's just like uh based on if I do this, then you'll do this, and it's a bubble. But that isn't faith, you know, it is that you you need that relationship and that anchor in him so that when the hard does come, because it's gonna come and it's gonna come hard, and everybody's gonna have it, that you have this foundation and you don't collapse like I did. And so I started building my foundation in so many ways, and uh um what was her name? Until I, yeah, so until and the story continues.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

So I just I was so curious when uh you said she said these four little words, which was when she came to your house, she said, The Lord's put this in my heart to come here. Do you believe that?

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Oh god, she asked, Can I pray with can I pray with you? He's asked me to come pray with you. Oh god, you know, will you accept?

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Did I hear that right? Did she say, Do you do believe me that this is what God wants?

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Um she she didn't say it that way, but she when she walked in, she just said, Um, the Lord has asked me to come and to pray with you. She but kind of because she said, Do you accept?

SPEAKER_04 29:04

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Like, will you accept this offer? Which, in the sense, Amos, you're exactly right. Do you believe this true? And I a hundred percent did. A hundred percent believed it was true because of who she was, of the way that she lived her life.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Because of her, because of her character, because of because of her character.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

I mean, like, I always thought, like, uh, I'm a Christian, I'm a Christian, but when you uh I was a Christian, but not in my words and my actions, but more so in what I did as far as um fulfillment. I went to church on Sundays, went to religion class on Wednesday, you know, forced my kids to go to church, prayed before I ate, prayed before I went to bed, very uh repetitive, very systematic, yes. Um, and thought, I think the and thought that I was doing what was right, thought that I was living, not realizing that I was not, you know, and I would say, like when my kids were struggling, you know, like, well, pray on that, but not so much in, you know, let's us pray on that. I wasn't a spontaneous pray person. I was a very repetitive uh pray, like our Father, Hail Mary, glory be, which are beautiful, but when you don't know what you're saying, you're just saying the words and they mean very little. And I was very just a very rip surface, I was on the surface, and I didn't know it until this happened.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

Would you say that character quality, the most important one in that moment was her humility? You mentioned she's in the car struggling to take the step the step, right? Yeah, to to reach out to you. And uh, you know, that just that takes humility, it takes humility so that you're not trying to do your own thing, you're just trying to do what the Lord wants you to do. Which you is that a fair assessment of the what's the quality in that line?

SPEAKER_00 30:54

She should be on here sometime with us. She was agonizing. What was she gonna say? She's never lost a child, she didn't even know me. Who is she? And she just said, I I had no idea what I was supposed to say or going to say. And and that's great, you know, that that is what you do in empathy, is that uh I wanted to go back to that. Empathy is coming in with no expectation, yeah, opening up this space for people and to really listen. And what she did, no judgment. I felt in no way, no judgment, no condemnation. She wasn't trying to change my mind. She wasn't trying to flip things on me. She wasn't, oh, don't think that or don't say. She just let me dump all of that. She opened so she came in with like, I've seen people grieve before, never to the level that you're grieving. That is really kind of an empathetic statement, you know, can like, or she said, I've never lost a child, but I can imagine if I did, how painful this would be. That's very empathetic. She asked me an open-ended question. Is there anything other than Kaylee's death that is bothering you? Open-ended. And then she just listened without judgment, and then she validated. Oh my gosh, I understand why you're feeling crushed underneath this. Oh my gosh. And then she offered the support, the support of, well, first of all, like in there too, if she can relate, you add her, you relate to it. But she just said, I can't even relate to this. Like I haven't ever been in this. But what I can tell you is that I would feel this way. And she offered me the support in uh, you know, the reconciliation and and in the forgiveness, in, and then she wrapped her arms around me and prayed in the most beautiful way. And the last thing, like in empathy and in supporting someone in compassion, you're not going to fix them. It isn't about fixing, it's about holding a space to let people just dump out and let them just dump out and not worrying about a thing to say back.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

I'm I'm thinking of the person who is who has a friend who's grieving and they they want to help and they don't know what the first step is. What do you say to that person?

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Yeah. Um, I I would first of all, I would just say, I, you know what? I I want to be here for you. I want to walk alongside you. I don't know what to say or what to do, but I don't want you to do this alone. I mean, just just that. And then and in that, to just like sometimes too, just when people are grieving, they're not gonna ask you for anything, you know. So if you do bring a meal, it but more so it's just opening up a space and letting them tell you how they feel. And the hardest thing is like when someone's dumping out, like if you lost a spouse or you lost something, uh, to counter that, like, you know, but you have so many more blood, you have so many blessings in your life, or you know they're in heaven. I know, I know that, but let me work through that on my own. When someone loses a 94-year-old grot, or you know, like, well, they had a light, not at least they had a nice long life, you know. I know, but I missed them. Someone has a miscarriage, you know. Well, at least you can have another one, or you have other children. I know, but this hurts me, you know, like true, but not helpful.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

They're trying to paint a silver lining or paint a you know, make a brighter picture.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

They they are, yeah. And and you know what, it's best intentions, but not but not helpful. And I think that's why it's important that we we do talk about it, and everybody grieves so different. Like, I mean, I uh I want people to talk about my daughter, my daughter-in-law, um, who is um uh lost her dad at when he was 55 at pancreatic cancer and she's in her early 20s, she cut hair. She did not want people to talk about it when she was cutting their hair because she couldn't even hold it together, you know. And then if I were cutting someone's hair, I would be like, Are you just gonna pretend this didn't happen? You know, are you gonna try? So we're all so different. So sometimes it's it is too to ask that permission, you know. Like, I'm thinking about you, are you okay to talk about it? You know, and just ask people.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Um it's so easy to get an analysis paralysis, isn't it? Like those things, those top five things that hold you back from taking action. Like it's not perfection. I don't have the perfect thing to say. I don't know what to say. And what you said was, I don't know what to say is something to say. And that's vulnerability. And that that in itself can open a door, can't it?

SPEAKER_00 35:46

That can really open a door. And when people say, you know, like, oh, I just I I wanted to give them space. From what? You know, for me, don't don't give me space. I'm in my own head already. I can hardly stand it. So I if people would have called me and said, could I come over? Um, I wouldn't have answered. Um, but when people stopped in, I was very grateful because it was a great distraction for me and I could feel that their love for me. So for me, that was really important. And uh um, and then people would say, Well, I was gonna stop at, you know, I just didn't want to make you cry. Yeah. Crying is really good, and I'm not gonna forget. You know, it's like don't don't think, you know, like you're reminding me, like I'm already there. And sometimes shared tears in a space is really beautiful too. Uh crying is really good, but the mourning process to be able to talk about it. Um, I just got to share this story. I was speaking out in um Headinger, North Dakota just last weekend. And um there was a I was at a hotel, a little motel in this town of like 1,500. And there was this woman that walked out. It's 5 30 in the morning. I'm working on my talk. She comes out, she has her Bible, she's just gonna grab a cup of coffee. And I just said good morning. I asked where she was from. She was from New Mexico. What are you doing here? You know, and then she goes, I I got it. It's just horrible, it's just tragic. And I was like, What happened? She goes, My my grandson died. Well, I'd already heard all about I go, did he die like last week? She's like, Yeah, I go, and he he took his own life, and uh that was kind of one of the reasons why I was there is because of all the tragedy. And um, his name is Isaiah instead of Isaiah, it was with an A. And so I was like, Oh my gosh, uh, because I said, Is his name Isaiah? She goes, Do you know my grandson? I go, I don't, but I've heard all about him. And then we just I opened this space for her. And uh, how did he get his name? And how did they get here? And and she the way she taught she raised him for part of his life, the way she just beamed about him. And then it was just like, you know, where are you right now? Like, how are you feeling in this moment? And she just dumped and dumped and dumped. And when she and Denise, my sister-in-law, was with me too. Um, and she just said, she goes, Cow, I just didn't realize how much I needed to talk about this. Thank you. And it that's all it was. Because when people know you, like everybody knew me, my family, they were all grieving, my friends were all grieving, our community was all grieving. So they're not, they already know Kaylee, and they already know what happened. But when someone comes in, like Chris, who didn't know Kaylee and didn't know me and didn't and lets me talk about it, that's why grief support, Christian counseling, all of that is just so important because it it's the mourning process.

SPEAKER_03 38:49

But uh yeah, I've said so many times because we all are gonna go through mourning. We're all gonna go through grief. It's a it's an inevitable thing, and it's scary to think about walking into it. And that's where Chris coming into your life in that moment and flipping the script for you, but not only she didn't come in and preach to you, she came in and showed you what a relationship with Jesus Christ looks like. And that to me speaks volumes when we get to show up and just listen, open your ears, shut your mouth, let people pour out, create that space, and just be the hands and feet. And don't try to think of what to say. Don't try to have the perfect things to say, fully rely on the Lord to speak through you and give the words to that person from Him and not from your own, your own being. Like it's amazing when we take ourselves out of it and we just let God do what He calls us to do, right? And that's the prayer of what she was doing. And so, you know, Deb, after knowing you, meeting you, hearing your full story, that was He was preparing your heart for what was to come. And so, like going to Tyler.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

Had she not come and had I not realized what I was missing, a relationship, and I dug in with everything I had. I mean, I started reading the Bible, I went to daily mass, I read a Jesus calling daily devotional, I started to pray, um, tried to pray out loud because I'd never done that. And um, it was about, oh god, probably Kaylee died in June. It was probably about October. And um I was actually, I was still very struggling in October um with what was going on. And um I remember saying to uh Tyler when he came home one day, I just said, Ty, you know that I would never have wanted this to be you. I I said, but I'm just I'm just so broken over this. And and is there any way that I can help you? And um, I remember him telling me, he goes, Well, mom, um, you're you're you're just such a downer. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you're like, I'm a downer. And he goes, You're so sad. You're you're so sad that I come home and I you just break me. And I'm trying to, he was in college and I'm trying to live my life. I'm trying to work, I'm trying to to to get back into life, and you're so sad and so broken, and I don't even want to come home. And another thing he said was like, if you ever hurt yourself, because it was he was, I will never forgive you as long as I live. And um it was such reality to me about how I was so such an inverted, uh grieving myself. And then he uh was off to college and he came home after that. And um I had I was down in his bedroom, and his backpack was just in a really weird spot. And I opened it up and um in it I found um some marijuana. And I don't like to share this part of the story, uh, but I also feel like it doesn't, it's nothing to do with his character, but I found it and I just thought Tyler Hadley does not do this. He is a three-sport athlete, he's a beautiful kid. Like, I mean, talk about putting someone up on a pedestal, the poor kid. And now I find this in his backpack. So um I call him and he's out with friends. And Tyler's the type of person, like I would call him and I would be like, Hey, Ty, it's mom, can you come home? And he would, he would come instantly and he came popping into the basement store door, and I'm standing there with this backpack in my hand. And um, he looks at me and he turns around and he slams the door and he walks out and he's getting into his car. Like, first of all, like, this has never happened to us. We don't have this type of relationship. He gets in his car, so I run out into the car and I get in the car, and I'm like, I go, Tyler, and he like we started arguing, yeah, like raising our voice. We never did that. And then he swore at me. He and I, you know, and I slapped him. And so here I'm grieving, my son's falling apart, I'm falling apart. I slap him, our relationship. He gets out of the car and he starts running. And I was like, Oh my god, what is happening to my life? Like, I lost my daughter and now I'm losing my son. I lost my voice. I couldn't even run after him. And I was just like screaming, please stop. And when I got over to him, he looks at me and he says, Do you understand? And he's just like, not even himself. And he's like, Do you understand how much I hate my life? Do you understand how much I don't want to be here? And he started like hitting himself. And it was like, Oh my gosh, what's happening? And I just walked over to him and I'm just like, Tyler, I've nothing to give you except for what I was given through prayer. I wrapped my arms around him just like Chris did. And I just prayed that God would just take all this pain and shame and guilt and fill him with the spirit. And I could feel him melting like putty in my hands. And when we were just like I did to Chris, and when we were done, he was like, Oh mom, that was so good. And I'm like, I know. Like it was like it was such a like the most beautiful moment. And then we just like walked arm in arm back to the home. And I just like, Tyler, I'm so sorry that I didn't see you. And what I realized is that my grief, I was grieving so hard that everyone was grieving me. So he couldn't, everyone told him to be strong. So he couldn't grieve his sister. He was grieving me. My parents said we lost our daughter and our granddaughter because they were grieving me. My husband's grieving me. I had no right. They all needed space. And he's, I'm like, Tyler, what's going on? And he just said, and he was so he had the most beautiful friends. And he's like, Mom, when I'm with them, and then we smoke that. I just feel like at peace for a little bit. I just feel like normal. And I can chill out the world. And so I'm like, okay, Ty, I get it. Because if you don't deal with grief, you're gonna do something else, whether it's in you know, an addiction, lust, pornography, spending, alcohol, drugs, you know, works, perfectionism, you're whatever, but you're gonna do something, and that's what he chose to do. And I have to tell you, I'm so grateful for that moment because I took him to the Christian counselor, I gave him a Jesus calling book. Um, we had so many amazing talks about heaven and what it was like. We um his friends would be like, I'd call him every night, we'd read Jesus calling, and his friends um would say, Hey, Lee, where's Hadley? He's on the phone praying with his mom, you know, and so it was all this culture that was happening and it was so beautiful. And then on March 5th, 2014, which was Kaylee's nine-month anniversary in heaven, and nine months was just super hard because she's nine months, you have a baby and she's gone. And it's so crazy because it wasn't just hard for me. Tyler came home from college, and my bonus daughter Jessie came, and at that time she had three kids. My mom and dad were there, my husband and my bonus son Josh, and we were all together just celebrating Kaylee. And Tyler was taking off for college, and um when he was ready to leave, I'm like, it was like 10 o'clock at night. I'm like, I know, I'm like looking up at it. I'm like, Ty, I just gotta tell you that if the Lord should choose to bring you to the kingdom, which he could because it happens just like that. Kaylee, we had no warning. I just said, I want you to know that like you are like one of the greatest gifts that I've ever received in my life. And I am so grateful for you. And he's like, he's like, Thank, thanks, mom, you know, thanks. And okay, you know, and then I said, and Ty, if uh by chance um the Lord should choose to take you, I'm not gonna have the guilt I had with Kaylee because you're spoiled rotten. Like, I mean, seriously, we had such a he was such a mommy's boy, and everyone will tell you that. And then, and I said in the last, I go, Ty, um, you know, let the Lord know that I'm gonna need it, would need a lot of help because I couldn't do this. And Kaylee sent me a sign of a purple platoonie. You could send me a sign too. And he's like, Okay, mom, I'd send you a sign. And the thing is, is like with Tyler, I knew that if there's any place that he wanted to be, he would want to be with his sister. Like, I mean, we weren't afraid in any way. So, and as I was, uh Tyler gave me, he went to give me a kiss on the cheek, and I'm like, no, no, no, kiss me right here on the lips, you know, my which is not weird in my home, you know. Um, but my husband's like, what is wrong with you? Like, I just gave this whole send-off, and I just I go, I just don't want to live with any regret. I just want to make sure that I um say everything that you guys know how much I love you. And I I truly, and I also told Tyler that day that I was feeling more joy and that my will to live was stronger than it had been in a long time. And he goes, I feel joy too, mom. We're gonna do this. And then he went off to college, and then two days later was March 7th, 2014. And um, I went to a conference called Set Apart. And you're like, what does the Lord set us apart for? Because we are all set apart. Our life is, I knew my life was not mine. I knew that the purpose came through him. And like, what is he gonna set us? What what what are we gonna do with this pain? What purpose will come from this? And so I went to this conference, and it was a two-day conference. I went with my sister-in-law and a bunch of women from her church, and we were up in in the cities, and um I uh that night I called my husband and I just said, um, just told him about my day. And he said, Deb, there's a really, a really bad accident uh that just happened in town. Um, see, that particular day was very warm on March 7th, where Tyler and his buddies were out shoveling off the sidewalk in shorts, and then they played basketball, and it was just very wet. And then pretty soon the temperatures dropped, so all the wetness froze, and then it snowed, so there was like a lot of ice. And he said, There's it, uh there was like the era ambulance came in, there were several ambulances, there were fire trucks, there was like all these, and and so like current. I just said, I go, Well, where's Tyler? And he's like, you know, he was just sitting right on the couch here with John. Uh, they were eating a subway sandwich, they were watching the Timberwolves, and the Timberwolves were losing. And at halftime, one of their buddies, Kansas, called them and asked them just to just drive around town. And so he just left him. I'm like, okay, you know, he like he just left. He's only been gone for about 10 minutes. And um, so I called Tyler and he didn't answer, and I text him, and you know, I he knew better because Kaylee didn't answer. And I just said, you know, like Ty, you know, mom, I just need to know that you're okay. Just let me know. And then Denise came and we got together with the women that were there, and I was talking about this signs from God and where he's been, and talking about Kaylee. And so I just got into, you know, distraction. And then at about 10 o'clock at night, Denise and I and her daughter went back to the room and they crawled into bed. And I was in the bathroom and I called my husband, and you know, like, where's Tyler? And he didn't know where he was. And then I called Tyler and he didn't answer. And then I called John, who he was with, and he didn't answer. And I was calling people, and I'm like, Oh, well, where is he? And my heart was just pounding, and I was just like, Oh my gosh, like I just felt so strongly that he was in the car. And just remember, two days ago, I just said, if the Lord should ever take you, like I like it was just so heavy on me. And um, and I Denise comes into the bathroom, my sister-in-law, and she's like, Deb, go to bed. Like, Tyler's fine. And I I looked at her and I said, He's not. I know he's not. And um, I called the police station at Sleepy Eye, and uh the police officer answered and I said, Um, this is Deb Hadley, and I need you to tell me that um my son Tyler was not in that car. And the police officer was like, Um, he's like, Well, we're on our way to your house right now. And I'm like, Well, I'm not there. I said, I need to know if he's in that helicopter and he has a fighting chance or if he's already gone. And he said, like, um, I'm sorry, he's already gone. And I just remember like just that like almost gonna just pass out. And then he said, There were four boys that died in that accident. And I was like, Oh my gosh, like who's in it? And he couldn't tell, he wasn't gonna, I go, you're gonna tell me. And it it could have been a number of people. He had so many friends. I thought, what families are gonna go through this suffering? Like, I'm gonna go through. And uh, it was John who he was with, a boy named Caleb, who he didn't know. Um, the driver's name was Kansas, and Kansas brother Peyton was in the car, um, was driving the car. And it was so it was John Tyler Peyton in Kansas. All the passengers died instantly. They came around the corner, they were going 50 and a 50. They hit black ice, they should have skidded off the end, but they t-boned and they hit uh a pickup that was only going 30 and they died instantly. And I remember after getting off the phone and just like I, you know, well, I screamed because I know that I woke up the whole hotel because everybody was in the hallway, and I was just like, oh my gosh. And then I like I just felt the love of the Lord, and I just felt him like grab me and he's like, focus on me and not the storm, just focus on me, not the storm. And when we were driving home for three hours in a snowstorm, I I just, you know, you get one thought. That's it, one thought. And I thought, I'm gonna, I cannot spiral out of control. And so gratitude is one of the most saving graces, praising God in the middle of storms when you don't want to, when you don't understand. I praised him. I thanked him for Kaylee for 24 years and for Tyler and the gift of my children. And I still have my parents, and I um was so grateful in so many ways, and uh, I just thanked him over and over. And when I got to my home, it was full of people. It was 3 a.m. It was full of people and uh kids, adults, everything. And I walked into the house, hugged my dog, my husband, came upstairs, put everyone in a circle. We held hands and we prayed to God. We prayed for Kansas, uh, who did survive, which I'm so grateful for. We prayed for the families that were gonna go through this. We prayed that God, you know, he was gonna lift this up for his good and for his glory, that my kids were good. And uh, and I just felt that he had been preparing me for a time such as this. And the crazy thing is, I spoke at Tyler's funeral. I'm gonna stand tall and firm in faith, but I to let all the kids know nothing matters in this world except for your relationship with Jesus Christ. Not that you, not what you drive, not what you wear, not any of your successes, none of that, but your relationship with Jesus Christ. And not only do you have a relationship, but you think like he thinks and you live like he lives and you love like he loves. And it was just such a game changer. And then people started coming to my house, the kids started coming because they felt like God was in my home. And so here I had changed to be different than everyone else. And um, and I am just so incredibly grateful for um for the continued journey, and um it's been a lot of work. Um, I uh this doesn't happen overnight. Um, I've done a lot of grief work. I'm certified in deaf and grief studies. Um, when you can help the next person in line, that Bible verse, I can't think of what it is, but when you can help the next, when God gives you so much love and grace through the hardships, and then you can use that to help the next person in line because of what you have experienced in it. And I feel like that's what he's been using me for. And I know like purpose and suffering, I see it, I I know it that what the purpose was, that the tragedy, it just turned into like the beauty, like beauty out of the ashes, and and it's painful. Um, it is, but and I, but I and I'm gonna have more losses and I will, but the difference is I'm not doing this on my loan, my own, um, but I'm doing it on the strength of Jesus Christ who's having me walk through.

SPEAKER_03 56:01

That we are such a beautiful soul. I what was the lady's name? The your I c I called the people that changed the trajectory of our divine purpose. Um and your earthly angel was Chris. Is that her name?

SPEAKER_00 56:19

Um, I I've had like so many. Uh, but Chris, like we could we could talk for hours of people who have come into my life with prophetic things and things that have happened and Bible verses that were given to me. But Chris was the person that came into my life. Uh, that was so different that yeah, I she saved my life, Heather.

SPEAKER_03 56:40

And uh there's there is just something to be said about that. And I can't say it enough. I can't like I just I just know in my heart that there is someone listening who has someone in mind that is like, I know I'm supposed to reach out, I know I'm supposed to do it. Like, do not wait another second, do it, because I believe as a believer in Jesus Christ, that he puts it in our Holy Spirit is inside of us, he puts it on our heart, he puts it so we're supposed to act, we're supposed to act on it. If Kate, if Amos wouldn't have turned his car on, if Kate wouldn't have dropped everything to come to crawl into bed with me the morning, I it's so important. It is it is a it is a matter of life or death for some people. And so be the hands and feet, be the one to step out, be the one to make the phone call, be the one to have the hard conversation, or just open your ears and just listen. Just can I create space for you? That is like the easiest thing to say. I don't really know what's going on, but you're on my heart. Can I create space for you and like in in a very very, very safe place? Like that is it. That's all that's all people need is just a safe place to open up and it can it can save someone's life.

SPEAKER_00 58:05

So it is and and to take you out of the picture. It's not like don't what am I supposed to say? What am I supposed to do? That isn't it, and when that anointing comes over you, it's only gonna last so long and then it's gonna go away. And so, like when you feel it, you like you have to act on it because then it will become more stronger and more powerful. And so uh that's what I would say too, is that um when you feel it, act because she did really, yeah, she saved my life. And I just I think my biggest message too is that we are not defined by our circumstances, we aren't. And for me, uh, there's just so much more to my story, but I realized that when my kids died, that they were my idols, I realized that they were first, and everything is first, you know. Like we know that whether God gives us these gifts, the children belong to him. Well, no, they were mine, and I my identity lied in them, and he was down here. And then when your identity is ripped away, uh it's empty up here, and so that's why I had to work. I wanted to get to heaven because my kids are there, you know. I that's what I wanted, and I had to really work this way so that he is first, and when we have those Bible verses that say, I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength, it's through him. And when we say that, be strong and courageous because the Lord your God will be with you, because it has to be through him. And I like it in me, you will find peace. In this world, you will have trouble. Well, the peace is in him. So if we choose to turn away from him, we have nothing to stand on, and we're gonna collapse underneath our own weight. And I I collapsed. I mean, I was like the the man who built his house on the sand and the wind came and blew and man, I smashed out, and it's gonna happen to everybody some hard. And so to build that foundation, because when the storm comes and you have a foundation, it's gonna blow against you and it's gonna push you, but you're gonna fall a little and crumble, but you're not gonna collapse completely. And I just say I go, I have I'm a sad person. I have, I mean, I cry a lot, I miss my kids every day, but I have more joy than I can even tell you, and more gratitude. And they walk hand in hand. I don't have to have one without the other. I have so much energy and I'm exhausted at the same way. But I tell you, Heather, I'm I'm so proud of my family and what we've done and our foundation. And I just I have to be so grateful because it could have all been different. You know, we can be salt and light in the world. And if I would have taken a different road, different choices of things, um, I would have crushed the whole beautiful structure of what I have. But instead, we have grown together, built together, built this foundation. We've grown stronger as a family and we honor them all the time. I mean, I have grandchildren that never met them, but boy, they know Kaylee and Tyler because they're alive and well. And so in grief, let's grief doesn't have to be pain. Uh, so like we feel like, how can I be happy? My kids died. So I'm gonna have to carry this pain and this no, yeah. We carry their love, their legacy. For I don't, I don't want to carry the pain. And if I start to go, you know, the what if I should have, could have, I have to stop that. Nope, not today. Uh-uh. And then I'm gonna take their love and move forward because they're with me. The relationship keeps growing until the Lord brings me home myself.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:43

Yeah, oh Deb. So you are such a blessing to so many. So thank you for being obedient. Thank you for like just grabbing a hold of him and just trusting, trusting that he is gonna just save so many people and transform so many people's lives through you. You are such a big, bold, beautiful vessel for God. And the joy. Can you even believe it?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:09

An old sinner like me, like that's just it. You know, I told Chris, I said, you know, Chris, and I think one of the reasons why I am very effective, and I do I do a morning God boost under KT Humbleheart's Deb Hadley, usually in my pajamas, and I just give a I said, I think the reason I said, Chris, more people are like me than you, like she was so different, you know. I said, I was a earthly thing, like I I was, you know, just your like, you know, I, you know, I if that makes sense. And and she was like up here, and so someone like me, who I was amongst these people blending in, and then the transformation in me and what it can do and how it can be. Um, but it is it is a transformation, and when we if you think in grief that what something's gonna happen to you and you're gonna be the same person and just pop back into life, you're it's not gonna happen. Um, the transformation has to come for from you because the grief is always gonna be there, so you have to grow and develop around it so that you can still. I mean, I want to live a beautiful, amazing life, loving and serving the Lord as a result of the gifts he gave me, as a result, but not wreck my life because he chose to bring them up to the kingdom. Like I want to be, and but I have to say, it's been lots of work, behavior change, transformation, reading his word, because there's so much in his word, living his word. I mean, the the Bible is just such a guideline, and I didn't read it. And now I feel like uh I've just you understand all the ordinary people who did extraordinary things, all the sinners that God lifted up and and you know forgave and uh and did amazing things. Well, that's us. We are we are the people of the Bible.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:01

We are, we are all we're we're new age people like walking around disciples that are all broken. And so, Deb, for those who are listening, for those who are in the middle of it, how do they find you? Can you give us like you're on Instagram, you're on Facebook, KT Humble Hearts? You have a website. If they wanted you to come speak at their church, they can reach out to you. Like you are, you have so many great resources out there. Am I missing anything?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:29

Um, like if people go to kt humblehearts.org just to check us out. On that front page, it says grief inquiry. Like you just have to fill that in. It's just simple, like, what is your grief? And then from there, we'll contact you and see if we can get you in a group, whether it's one-on-one, whether we need to do a zoom. So we're gonna do that. And I always say people be strong. Weak people sit back and let and think they can do it on their own. Strong people go get help and say and become vulnerable, and then they can heal and they can help the next person in line.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:01

Um, yeah, so that's a great resource. Um, KT Humblehearts Deb Hadley on Facebook is my morning God boost. And um debhadley.com is another website with all my speaking. But um, like I just spoke for the Lions Club, I do a lot of mental awareness, um, lots of churches. I've spoken in schools, but um, I I love the most speaking in faith-based organizations and being able to share the love of the Lord. And um that he is boy, when we partner with him, it's pretty amazing. He pours back in.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:35

Complete I you know we loved, we loved having you at the I Am Fortified event. It was you really, you you really shook things up in a very pro profound, beautiful, deep, faith filled way.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:47

So thank you, Deb, for just like these things, like they happen to people we don't know. And then it happened to me. And then I come in, I'm like, this is what happened, but I'm still standing and I I know. Have to get off, but there was a woman who at church. I just I commented on her outfit once she sees me once in a while, and then she was in a group and I walked by and she said, Do you know that woman? And she goes, Oh, yeah, that's Deb Hadley. She goes, and she goes, She's always so happy, she's always like full of joy, like she's so happy. And then the woman said, Do you know her story? And she's like, had no idea. And then so yeah, so she ended up coming to my office bawling, you know. And now, uh, yeah, we've uh partnered up and are doing some amazing things in our faith together. But yeah, everybody has a story um in every way, and so uh I just joy is there. Joy is dependent on our Lord, happiness is dependent on circumstances, and that can that can go away at any time. So let's have the joy of the Lord. Doesn't mean it's that we're not sad, doesn't mean there's not pain, but you have that firm foundation. I'm forever grateful. So thank you, Deb.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:58

I love you, sister.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:59

And grateful for your story, Deb. Thank you so much. Thanks for your vulnerability. I I really believe that um it's so hard to take that next step because we don't know what to do, and you've given some of those next steps. So thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:13

What a joy, what a pleasure. Beautiful couple, so glad God brought you into my life. Just dropped us right in itself.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:20

Anyway, we love you. We love you. You're a family now, and you can never get rid of us.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:25

So I guess it's a good thing. I have met, I think that's uh I have met the most beautiful people because of my losses. Yes, and have had such amazing opportunities because of our losses. And we do these events, these remembrance walks where we bring people in to be able a sacred space to honor their loved ones. And one of my buddies who wrote a song for me called Resurface, um, he just walked up, he goes, and it says, uh, feel the love, feel the love all around you as you resurface, is the refrain in there. And he goes, he goes, I hope you feel the love. And I do. I I feel I feel so much love, uh, so much gratitude for um, would I have wished this on anyone? Absolutely not. But boy, can God transform and make beauty out of so much suffering? Absolutely. And so I always believe in whatever hardship someone's whatever someone's going through, if we're gonna suffer, if there's no purpose in suffering and we just suffer to suffer, then that is just uh horrible. I don't I never want to suffer to suffer. But when you are in deep suffering, do not waste the beauty that is in deep suffering when you know you can't do it on your own, where you're so stripped and you have to surrender and you have to grab his hand because then lookout. Yeah, be available. All right, Lord, use me. And wow, it's just gonna be like talk about fireworks and uh changing your life. It's gonna be quite a ride, uh, despite those hardships. So it's available for everybody.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:58

Oh, yeah. Well said, Deb. Thank you so much. Okay. All right, God bless guys. You too, Deb. Bye.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:06

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SPEAKER_03 1:09:14

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