SPEAKER_03 0:00

Here comes the sun do. Here comes the sun to say. It's all right.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Hello, fortitude audience. My name is Heather Kittleson and I am your host. And I am sitting next to my wonderful husband, Amos, who is the co-host.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

Hi.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

And in our studio today, we have Phil Tag. Hello, Phil.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Good morning. Good to be here.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

I have been looking forward to this one for months.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Oh man, Phil Tag is the head pastor and founder of Ransom Church in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, where we attend. And we have been there for over 10 years. And so respectfully, Phil is a big reason why we are so wise.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

I will take that. I will claim that.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

You want to hear, you know what one reason why we love the ransom? Yeah, I'd love to. So I rededicated my life to over listening to lifechurch.tv. Okay. Yeah. To um, I should know his name now. Craig Rochelle. Craig Rochelle. Yeah. Yeah. And every time you walk listen to one of his messages, you walk away and it's impactful. Like you walk away, go, yep, I'm gonna remember that. I want to take action on that. And that's how I feel your messages are too. So you walk away, because it's so easy for a church to go. You walk in and you do the thing, you check the box. Okay, what did we talk about? Yeah. Right. I think that's almost too common.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

I have the uh I've been told I have the spiritual gift of putting the cookies on the bottom shelf. Uh I've never heard that. You know, I had a mentor in my life who used to say, uh, the Bible is simplistic enough for kids to understand deep enough that scholars wrestle with it. But our goal as speakers and preachers is to go from simplistic to complex to simple.

SPEAKER_03 1:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

And if you stay simplistic, you didn't say anything. If you go complex, you said a lot, but nobody understood it. And where life transformation happens is when you bring it back up to the symbol and you can go, this is what this means for you in your life. And people go, Wow, that's the thing. Yes. And so that's and you leave with it. That's what I try to do.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

And you do it well. Because you nail it I'm grateful for it. Thank you. Phil, you even nail tithing. Right. Like most I've been in a lot of churches where tithing, you're like, oh, I should not have brought a guest today. This is this is not a good message. And every time I come in and you're you're speaking about tithing, I'm like, I would, I would want the whole row of 10 guests to be there that day because you do it so well.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Good to hear because when I'm speaking on tithing, I think, oh, I wish Heather wouldn't have brought a guest today. No, you do it so well. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

When Amos and I uh were when we were very first married, we were we were looking to find where we wanted to raise our family. And we went to ransom and then we went to a couple others, and I kept looking back at Amos and saying, man, that's it. I said, I there's that's it. We have the ransom is it. And what was really neat is that Amos was like, hey, I graduated with Phil Tag from Roosevelt High School.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

What? Yeah. You two knew each other back in the day.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

No, that we knew each other, we knew of each other. Yeah, we knew of each other and and big school. We were acquainted. Yeah, big school, we were acquaintances. Uh, but what I do know is that um I like I look back at that time and I go, I had I was a believer then. I had so much opportunity. And ransom in so many ways is my second chance. So when anytime that somebody from my past comes to ransom uh that I did not share my faith with then, I mean I could have shared my faith with Amos, and he might have been like, I'm a believer, and that would have been cool, but I never had that conversation. Yeah, right. And so anytime I get to uh lead somebody to Christ that I went to school with or whatever, it's like, thank you, God, for giving me a second chance. Because we don't always get second chances.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Yeah. And I think looking back, you know, believers stand out, they just act differently. And I remember that about you. Yeah. Just different. Just through some mutual friends, you hear things and you go, yeah, that's different.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Yeah, well, I mean, your life is your testimony. Uh, and yet if you live the life that causes people to notice and then don't take that opportunity, it's a wasted story, you know. And uh my life in high school was in too many times away. I I mean, I did I shared my faith some, but it was too many times a wasted story. And uh, so I'm just committed to not do that again.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

And your second chance lives on with those beautiful kiddos of yours, too, because man, your oldest Truitt is just on fire and he is a light, a burning light. Like he's a so yeah, that's another second chance for you.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Yeah, he's uh he's my number two, actually. Uh our daughter's right. Yeah, Trinity's the oldest. Yeah, but yeah, he's uh what the Lord is doing to him, and and I mean Trinity too, but she's shyer. But truett's got uh just a something special about him. He does just uh uh an anointing upon his life that's really fun. The the coolest part of parenting is when you go through all the things and you're like, is this working?

SPEAKER_03 4:59

Yeah, it did.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Did I it did any of this stick? And then you watch your, you know, our goal is not to raise children, it's to raise God-fearing adults, you know, people who love God, love others, and are fun to be around.

SPEAKER_03 5:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

And I got all that with my kids. And so I'm gonna, I I've still got a 10-year-old, but the older two, I'm in a really fun season where I'm going, it was worth it.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Yeah, it's amazing who they became and they're unique to their own personalities. But to to go, we instilled our faith in them to the point where they made it their own is is like there's no greater victory, period.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

And it is a that's what my dad talks often. Yeah, he's got five kids who all love the Lord, and that's a huge source of pride for him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

It's the whole well done thing. So you and Steph, tell us a little bit about your bride.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Uh, so she's the weirdest person I know. She is I have told her that. That's a funny line. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's uh, she's uh if a unicorn and a butterfly became one thing, that would be my wife. Um, she's an Enneagram seven uh with a six-wing, which essentially means she's like, I want to party all the time. But what if everything goes wrong? You know, uh she is my my life mate, my partner in ministry. We've been married uh, you know, 23, almost 24 years now, uh, and uh met in college, uh married right out of college. Uh she was the girl that um I was dating the girl when I met her, I was dating the girl that would have um done everything for me. Uh but I I listened to the Bama podcast a little bit. And uh in the Bama podcast, when they talk about Genesis and they talk about uh your helpmate, the the actual Hebrew is a picture of um partnership through um challenge, and it's a picture of two boards leaning against each other. Uh and if you remove one, the other one falls. So it's the tension that makes that work and you great. That's who she is for me. She she she loves me enough to not let me be complacent. She loves me enough to to to push me to all that God has for me, and vice versa. And and it's such a fun tension. She's she's so fun. She's my best friend.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

And she makes me do stuff, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

And I love it.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

I love how on when you're preaching on Sundays, how you can make fun. Like you, your marriage is fun. Like you can make fun of each other.

SPEAKER_03 7:30

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

And she sits in the audience, and when I look over, because I can see her usually where we're sitting from, and she's just busting out, laughing.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

And every joke I make about our family is approved by her and the kids. I don't ever drop anything without their permission. I don't tell stories without her permission. But uh yeah, we that that's what I mean, we can laugh at ourselves and we're having a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

I recently had coffee with Stephanie, and again, I just love her and her honesty. And when we're gonna get to this in a little bit, but about your book, she was talking about the cover and the difficulties you guys went through back and forth. And she's like, and I didn't like it. And then I told him, and then I he said, but and we just had this whole conversation about what the cover was gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

I knew I I knew I landed on the right cover uh when it made her nervous. Yep. I was like, okay, sweet. Uh I wanted a cover that um made Christians uncomfortable. I wanted a cover that uh because the because the topics will make people uncomfortable, right? And I so I wanted a cover that I actually the first draft of the cover was over the line, and she's like, that is over the line. And so I made sure to back it up just enough that my toes are still sticking over, but and she was like, Okay. And now, and now she loves it, but it took her a minute to go, this is gonna make people mad. I said, I hope so. Gosh, I hope so. Yeah, you know, uh, I'm not here to fluff.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

We have enough fluff in the world.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

No, yeah, we got like five cover views from our my publisher, and she was like, I like that one and that one. I was like, and those are the two I hate, like just eight. I like this one. She's like, I don't like that one. But then my daughter liked it, my son liked it. She's like, I know I don't like it. I'm okay with it. And so now she loves it.

SPEAKER_02 9:08

But we know this. Amos and I are very similar in so many ways.

unknown 9:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

But it's not about us today. So, Phil, you you are adopted. I am, and from birth, so you know no different.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Nope.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

But can you share what that experience has been like for you?

SPEAKER_00 9:27

Yeah, so I am uh the third of four children, three girls. I was the only boy. Uh so two older sisters, one younger, all adopted. Uh, my parents tried to have kids, couldn't have kids, um, and uh adopted from different families. So it's just kind of been my reality always. Uh people used to ask me as a kid, like, well, what's it like to be adopted? And I would say, I have no idea. I don't know what's like to be not adopted. I, this is my context. Yeah. Um, but uh my sisters have, for the most part, processed adoption as a loss. And it is like everything you learn about adoption is this beautiful thing, but it comes, it's it's a beautiful thing that's redeeming a loss, redeeming a parent who just for whatever reason can't parent or whatever. But they my all three of my sisters have processed adoption as I was given up. And my oldest sister has found her her birth parents, and that's been really redeeming for her, uh, her birth mom anyway, and uh, and siblings there. And and when she got to hear the story of why her mom had to give her up, that helped a lot. But there was always that uh I was abandoned or I was given up. I never had that perspective on adoption. For whatever reason, adoption in my head was I was chosen.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

I was, I was given um, I had a birth mom who couldn't take care of me, who loved me enough to still choose life and give me that life. And I had birth parents who loved me enough to adopt me and raise me and try to uh you know raise me in faith and and and do the best they knew how. And and uh so I always that was my perspective. And it's probably affected my faith too, because faith is nothing if it's not an adoption story. And so I I have always um had a an openness to faith, even in struggle. Uh, you know, when I'm trying to run from God, there was still that, but he chose me. Yeah, but he gave me a he gave me a second chance. And so it's always been uh, you know, either I'm walking towards his redemption, or even when I'm running from him, I can't get away from his redemption. And that's just been kind of the the lens for for my faith story as it pertains to adoption. And so now I'm a father of two birth children, but then we felt the call to adopt. And uh so I'm on both sides of it. And it's been so interesting how many opportunities I've had to say to my son, my adopted son, yeah, me too. Yeah, I understand what you're feeling there. Yeah, I know what you're going through. But did you know that thing you're feeling, you know, man, you you wish you had this relationship with your birth mom or you can't understand why she gave you up? But did you know that she chose to give you life? Did you know we chose you? And he would he would say, even at 10, I would never trade you as parents, but I've been able to walk through that loss with him in a way where I can go, yeah, dad understands. And it's been a really cool, really cool journey for us.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

How has it been in like in those conversations with your son? Because remind me where you adopted him from.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Uh, we adopted him here in Sioux Falls. Uh his uh he knows his birth mom. He's met his birth mom. Um she uh we bought we adopted him through Bethany Christian services at the time.

SPEAKER_03 12:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

And um, yeah. Um, and we adopted him. Uh he was seven weeks old when he came home.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

Okay. I just think that through because you have have or have not met your mom.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

I've never met my birth mom.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Okay. Do you have a desire?

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Uh at times, um so in ministry, it's been a little, you know, there's some unique factors, and and our family has has been uh had some ups and downs and rough times. And I don't know how you feel about your family, but I'm like, you know, family, extended family. This is a crazy ride I'm on. And so for me, a lot of it is I I had parents, I knew my parents, my parents have passed, I knew my parents. It I don't have anything incomplete in me. Uh my story's complete. And so for me, my sisters have some of that desire for me. I'm like, what if my yeah, I don't know if I need a the I that might be dramatic. I've actually thought, what if my birth mom attends our church and knows, but doesn't want me, you know, and I I expose her. And so once you open that can, you can't so I've thought about it, and every time I walk up to the line, I'm like, no, I got enough. I got it. My my life's fulfilled. I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

That's beautiful. I can sympathize with that because my dad's adopted. And so there's a good chance that I've got relatives that could be next door that I don't know about. And it's interesting to think about that, but I don't I don't have a hole in my soul from that. It's just like if it happens, okay. That's that's I I wouldn't reject it.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

If she searched me out, I would definitely say absolutely, you know, but but um my life is enough, and I'm so thankful to be a part of it. And so my my searching her out could could bring factors into her life that she doesn't want. And if she wants to find me, she she can, you know. But I just yeah, I don't have an incompletion in that.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Can we can we flip that on its head? What if so it sounds like you had a good childhood, a good upbringing, uh healthy, safe. Can you put yourself in the place, or do you know of anyone who's had the opposite experience? And what would they what are they going through and what would be your advice to them?

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Yeah, and I mean, I had a far from perfect childhood. I had three sisters. I'm gonna say, uh, I had I had parents who were well-meaning but really legalistic and uh uh really caused me to struggle with who God was for a while. Uh, but I do, I know, I know um, you know, like my best friend growing up was was adopted uh by his grandmother because his mom had MS bad enough that she was, you know, vegetative essentially. And uh, you know, everyone processes their story differently. And what I've had to tell so many friends along the journey, especially, you know, when you're adopted and you are adopted into a poor situation, um, it really taints your view of your heavenly father. You know, like why did you let this happen to me? Why and what I've had to share with so many is even if you had a bad upbringing, you know what a father is supposed to be in your soul. And the the way you know your your earthly parents are failing is because you have a standard in your mind of what succeeding as a parent looks like, because you have a perfect heavenly father. So don't make the mistake of judging your heavenly father by your earthly parents. Judge your earthly parents by your heavenly father and say, hey, they're falling short, and that's okay. They're imperfect, but my heavenly father's not imperfect.

unknown 16:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

But don't make the mistake, because so often what we do is we we experience pain and trauma on the earth at the hands of people, and then we reflect that upon our heavenly father, but that's not who he is.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

No.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

Is it is it fair to say that people tie that to, well, that's what I guess God wanted for me. And like someone gets cancer as, well, I guess that was God's plan. Is that fair to say that that it's really is not God's plan that someone gets cancer or that they you know he impacts someone to get adopted, maybe may not. Yeah, yeah. But do you you see the connection where they go, well, that was I guess that's what he wanted for me. And so there could be some, there could be some, you know, some bad feelings there.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yeah, I do. And and I think that, I mean, adopted or not adopted, I think that in general um people struggle with God uh when we we hold him accountable to earthly promises that we think he's made to us, that we've made to ourselves, that he never made. The promises he makes to us are eternal promises. And so he says, I mean, he says to us in scripture, in this world you're gonna have trouble. But take heart, overcome the world. And he makes these promises about the what he has for us, but they're not all earthly promises. And our problem is we assume God wants me to be happy. And what he actually wants is for us to be healthy and holy. Yeah. And when you're healthy and holy, you are more happy. Actually, you have more joy in despite circumstance. Yeah. And so when we when we look at God and we say, well, his role in my life is to make me happy, we're gonna be mad at them all the time. But when we understand his role is to make us uh healthy and holy so that one day we can be with him forever and be happy, that's like a completely different perspective on life. And so, you know, you know, cancer happens and cancer is terrible, and God hates cancer, but he also gave us free will and free choice, and we sinned, and that broke the world, and now there's cancer in the world. And while he allows those things to play out in a way that we don't fully understand here on this side of earth, um people of faith find hope through the cancer, not anger at God because of the cancer. Um, and I think a lot of that just comes from we we are holding God accountable for promises he never made to us.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Yeah, yep, that's fair. It's fair to say that he wants joy for us, he wants us to be happy. Absolutely. He probably has a different way of going about it, just like you said, through being healthy and and holy. And that will bring you true joy versus just some of the surface level joy that we actually and Christ modeled that.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Right? Christ modeled that. I mean, scripture says uh for the joy set before him, he endured the cross. So clearly there's a different understanding of joy than happiness. You know, I I heard it said once that our happiness is based on our happenings. They're circumstance, happiness is a circumstantial thing. Completely right. Joy is a choice.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

And I'm I'm I'm teaching my 10-year-old that right now. He's going through some things that are not happy. They're not fun, they're hard. Uh, he's he's African-American, he's experiencing some racism, he's he's 10 years old, and so he's experiencing being a 10-year-old and and all the things that come with that. And uh, you know, we're talking about, yeah, bad good things and bad things happen, but good things and bad things don't determine good and bad days. Our attitude, our choices determine good and bad days. So you could have the worst day and choose an attitude of joy in it, and it was actually a good day that was just hard. Or you can choose to give into that, and we're working on that even at 10 years old. Yeah, you know, yeah, so are we.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

One of your recent sermons was titled Jesus Was a Life of the Party. Yeah. I love that. Yeah, I had never thought about that. We we did a tour in Germany, we went to a lot of Catholic churches, and it's the sad, it's the sad Jesus, right? I much prefer that Jesus had joy in his heart and he lived that out every single day. And so that was inspirational to me in the way that we uh approach challenges, yeah, just with that a much more optimistic and positive attitude like Christ.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

The um the series The Chosen. So I'm back, I went all the way back because every time a new season comes out, I go back to the beginning and rewatch the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

That's smart.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

And they're it they do so well at capturing his joy and his mourning.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

And the scene, and and I I can't encourage our audience enough. If you like the questions about Christ, you have questions about this and all the things about biblical context and the 12 disciples and Jesus and all the things. I'm like, go watch this. It honestly makes me feel like they're all my best friends, and that's how God wants us to feel is He is our best friend. I love when He winks at Mary. Like he said, she opens the door, he had just taken the spirit, the demon spirit away from her, and because she was possessed. And he comes and sits down with her and the people at her table, and he he chuckles and then he winks. Like he was so he's just so beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Everything I gotta admit, when when The Chosen first came out, I would like I tend to be a little skeptical, skeptical of Christian movie every oh, you gotta watch this when I watch this, sounds like trash. Yeah, that was the Ten Commandments, right? So I would even watching the first season of The Chosen, and four or five episodes in, I found myself just weeping.

SPEAKER_03 21:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

And uh, and it wasn't at a particularly moving moment of the of the show. And Steph said, What's going on? And I just said, if people people can argue, is this theologically correct? Are they are they representing this? Did they take license? Of course they did. It's a show, right? But if people could understand that the Jesus of the Bible loves them like this, yeah, we would not have a faith issue in our

SPEAKER_02 22:00

He would not at all.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Right?

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Yep. Just the scene.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

He's fun. He's real. He's in it with you. And he just man, he just loves you desperately. And if people could the love Jonathan Rooney's portrayal has been fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

Yeah. The the scenes of him with the children in the very beginning where he's carving the wood and they have all the questions and they're just like, it's so good. Okay. But anyway, that's a great promotion for the chosen. They are not a sponsor, by the way. We don't even have any. But Phil, I will I want to get back to you. Have had a life-threatening like you you almost died.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

I did. I did. Yeah. Uh 2006. I I was um working on a campground. I got I was a youth pastor at the time. We got certified uh on our rocks climbing course. Everything was great. Uh and then there was a there was something that happened with a rock climbing wall, which is 60 feet tall. And uh so I I climbed the rock climbing wall and then fixed the fixed the pulley. And then um I went to propel down. I came over the edge. Uh uh and I was everything was great. And I went to begin repelling and my my gear, everything failed, and I fell 57 feet. And uh the good thing is the rocks broke my fall. Um the the good thing were there. Yeah, I I was falling and I felt the first thing I thought was, man, I'm glad I have life insurance. Uh because I thought I'm dead. You know, how old were you? I I was in my, I mean, not quite 30. I was in my 20s. Okay. Had two kids at home, two little kids at home. Um, and I thought that was my first thought. I'm glad I have life insurance because I just want to make sure they're taken care of.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

On the way down.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

On the way down. That's first thought. I fell in like a second and a half, but my first, it felt like 20, 20 minutes, you know. First thought was that. And then the very next thing in my head, the Holy Spirit said, turn to your left and relax. And I thought, that seems strange. And I I did, like in my head, I did. Uh well, I had been, I had fallen and I had hit a peg and I had been falling head first. And the guys that were there said, You didn't hit anything, and it looked like someone just grabbed you and turned you over mid-air. And I landed the only way I could have survived. I mean, period. Um, so I was I was uh 50-50, I was gonna die going in surgery, made it through the surgery, 50-50, I was gonna be paralyzed, um, made it through that. And then I I remember uh before, like when I first got to the emergency room, I was laying uh on the bed in a lot of pain, in and out of consciousness. And I kind of was like, God, I need I need you, I need something. I need, and the verse he brought to my head was the story of the young man born blind and the people saying, Well, who sinned? Him or his parents? And Jesus said, Nobody sinned, this happened so that I might be glorified. And I thought, well, that seems I wanted something a little more, you know, that you might need a point on a pillow and like my God will supply all my needs. And he gives me this story, and I thought, why did he give that to me? And the Holy Spirit said, Um, if I dropped you and it wasn't about you, are you okay with that? And I said, Yeah, I am. And starting then, uh, I got to share my faith with a nurse in Denver. I got to, I the number of times I've had I've got to tell my story and it led to a f a faith opportunity. Uh, and I have pain I live with all the time, and I got to go to the chiropractor, and I have to keep my way, I have to work out. But um the the lessons I learned in that season, if I had not learned them, I never would have planted ransom church. So you could say ransom church exists in part because God let me fall.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

So you don't think that's a hypothetical question? You think that's a real question?

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Yes. I it was not hypothetical to me because it's just been over and over. God has spoken to me my whole life in a handful of phrases that just like uh our first child, um, Steph had to go and get an emergency C-section, and uh local anesthetic didn't work, they had to put her under. And so I'm outside the room looking through a little window, you know, square window, and uh Steph's opened up and they pull Trinity out and she's not breathing. And all these doctors start rushing in from everywhere and they innovated her and they're doing chest compressions on my baby. And in that moment, the Holy Spirit said, You say you're faithful to me. If I took them both right now, would you still be faithful? And I mean, it felt like an hour before I answered, and I said yes, and Trinity started crying just like that. And uh my whole life has been just these hinge moments uh when I tried to run from the Lord in my faith. I I felt a call, I went to study for ministry, but I didn't want to be doing ministry, and I tried to run from the Lord, and I I left college. I I just I determined every every Christian I know is a hypocrite and I'm done, and I walked away from faith and I partied and I did things I knew I wasn't supposed to do my whole life, and I woke up one day and I was miserable. And the Holy Spirit said, So the answer to hypocrisy is hypocrisy. Interesting. And I went, and and and that was when I went back to college and I've never and never looked back from that point in my faith. And so I have these moments where, for whatever reason, because of my personality, God's got to just like smack me good. And I go, Oh yeah, you're sovereign. I forgot my bad, right? And uh get back on track. And so that's been my whole life. And so that I mean, that literally is uh even our adoption story is like that. You know, just these moments where God goes, smack. Yeah, I'm still sovereign, uh, but in a loving way, you know.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

You you skipped over how many bones you broke.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Well, so I I broke my pelvis in half, front and back, fractured it five times on the left crest, uh, pulverized the talus bone on my left ankle, tore the tendon in my left ankle. Um, they did not think I would walk again. Um, and uh I have a cool x-ray, but uh here I am. Uh on your wall. Do you have it? I have it on my phone because when I travel, sometimes I get like, you know, I set off the metal detector and I gotta be like, okay, listen. And this is okay. Go on. Yeah, go on through.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

So your your lot of metal in there?

SPEAKER_00 28:24

About eight pounds.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

Oh. Do you tell them to take it off your weight chart?

SPEAKER_00 28:30

I would like to. Like sometimes when I go to the doctor, I'm like, but listen, you've seen my implants. He's like, Yeah, you're lighter than that. That's fine, but it's not that big a deal.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

Dude, I'm a bionic man. Yeah. How much bit on the oh, eight pounds.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

My wife, my wife's joke is, well, you tried to fly, that didn't work, but you're still the man to steal. And for for like a decade, my uh fantasy football handle was iron butts. That was my fantasy football.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

I always said, if they're gonna go and do surgery, major surgery, yeah, let's put some accessories in there. That's what I'm saying. Like a cell phone.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

I got no inspector gadget, nothing.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Nothing. Yeah, no gifts.

SPEAKER_02 29:03

Thank you for saying that. I always say Google gadget.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

Yeah, flashlights on your knees so you can go running.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

It would be amazing.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Just a quick little like knee click. You just go click and you have a flashlight coming out of your kneecap. I'm what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

I'm for it.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

I would be too.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

I'm for it. I think it's time for some upgrades.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Can we patent that? We just we just discovered something that might happen. It's on the record that was our idea.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

When you um can you explain a little bit more about the equipment failure? You said everything failed. What are the odds? What are the odds of that happening?

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Uh they still don't know what failed. Because when they took the harness off, it was fine. When they looked at the ropes, they were fine. So you could say nothing failed, but I was free-falling. There was nothing holding me.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

What what do you make of that? What the heck?

SPEAKER_00 29:50

I I again, um I think God needed me to fall.

SPEAKER_03 29:56

Oh.

unknown 29:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

Right. So I mean, I think a question, I'm gonna get a little preachy now, but I think a question that we can all ask ourselves is would we got let God break us in order to make us? So I can look at I I have the like I had a physical experience that I can go back to where God literally physically allowed me to be broken, and I can in so many ways point to that was a major moment in my life that set me on a path to form me into the man I became. Yeah. I had a choice what to do with that tragedy in my life. I had a choice what to do in that situation. I think we all have those, some physical, some metaphorical. Uh, but are we willing to let God break us in order to make us?

SPEAKER_01 30:42

So before every podcast, we always pray for the person who needs to hear the thing. And we just want to be the hands and feet. We know that there are other people going through this right now. They're questioning, they're in pain. What did what what the heck? Right?

SPEAKER_00 30:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

What do you say to that person?

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Uh that's a great question. Um I would say we get to determine in our minds whether God is sovereign or not. Right? And define sovereignty. So God is either God is God, he's in control of all things, which means what he wants is best, what he wants to do is best, what he wants for my life is best, even if it's hard. Or I'm sovereign, I'm in control. Uh and so, you know, if if God exists to make my life what I want it to be, um, then he owes me an explanation when I fall, when mom gets cancer, when bad things happen. If God is sovereign, then I have to reconcile, okay, God is in control of everything and he's still allowed this and he's still good. What do I do with that? And I have the choice to bring it to him and say, I don't understand this at all. And we see that all through scripture. You know, if you read the Psalms, King David in the Psalms so often is like, My enemies are attacking me. I'm I'm in a cave. You said I was the king, but now I'm I'm hiding here and and my own son's trying to kill me. Like, but he always ends with, you're sovereign, like you're in control. Blessed be the name of the Lord. There's a moment in our in tragedy that we just go, either God's in control or he's not. If he's not in control, don't be mad at him, because he's not in control. If he is in control, trust him. Tell him you don't understand, tell him you're frustrated with him, and and say, but I still trust you. You know, like, but don't that's not where we live. Where we typically live is I don't believe in God and I'm mad at him.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

If he's not in control, don't be mad at him. Right. Or he is in control and he is sovereign.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

And trust him and trust him.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

And you can and you can be mad at him. You can say, I don't like this. He can take it, but I still trust you. Uh there's a found he he he is either God or he's not. And he can't be God until he does something I don't like. Because if that's who he is, he never was God.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Yeah. I I look at God as this way. If God can listen to hundreds of thousands of prayers simultaneously in different languages, parse all them, and still figure out a way to make it all do his will and speak a universe to existence, that's a God worth following. Because the last time I checked, I can't do any of that, not even close. Yeah. So who am I to have an opinion about who how he does things?

SPEAKER_00 33:42

Yeah, you know, I had a uh college professor uh who used to always just say he'd have us, you know, every you know, he'd have us open Genesis 1-1. Any class he taught, he'd have us open Genesis 1-1. And he'd say, Somebody start reading. And somebody would say, in the beginning, God, and he'd say, Stop. He'd say, if you can be okay with that, there's nothing you can't trust him with. If in the beginning there was a God and He made everything, and He is holy and He is true, the resurrection, no problem. Miracles, no problem. Yeah, hardship, no problem. Yeah, because God is faithful. Doesn't make sense. No, no, but we are very limited in our capabilities. Yes. Shouldn't a sovereign God, shouldn't a holy, almighty, eternal God have a better perspective than me?

unknown 34:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So that was his thing. If if in the if you can, if you can reconcile in the beginning, God, everything else is cake.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

Even the really hard.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Even the really hard.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

I I have a women's group that I have led for over a year, and we just were talking about anxiety just yesterday. And I said, I I don't think that I have physically had anxiety for well over a year and a half. Because anxiety to me used to be not being able to catch, I would be worrying so intensely that I would my breath and my chest and my heart and all the things, and I would pace. And I haven't had that because I have fully completely trusted. Even like it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Like I would say, you know, people can trust God and He can like we'll use anxiety, he can heal you from your anxiety. Yeah, right. But he also might not, and you might still need anxiety medicine. Yeah, but we also have the choice what we do with our anxiety. I have anxiety, I trust in God, God is good. I'm gonna give God my anxiety, I'm gonna ask him to help me with it. Yeah, and I'm I'm just gonna trust it. But even in my anxiety, he's still faithful, you know, shapes everything, you know, shapes our perspective.

SPEAKER_02 35:46

Yeah, thank you for saying that too. Because yeah, there's there's always two sides of that where it's like, well, I still have it and I fully trust God. So what's my problem? And it's like it's not, it's not that. It's not a problem, but in our prayers, we need to be asking different questions a lot to God.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Is that is it a muscle that needs to be exercised too?

SPEAKER_00 36:05

Yeah, it does, it does, and it's and it's also understanding, like I think key is understanding his will is better than my will. So there are things in my life I've prayed for and they've happened, and it's been one awesome. Uh, there are other things that I've asked God to deliver me from or get me over, and he's never done it.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

And I've been like, okay, then I'm gonna let this go and I'm gonna trust you and I'm gonna live with it. And years later, you go, that's why you know that's you let me go through that so I could have that one conversation with that person. And it goes back to that truth he spoke into my life. Will you let God break you in order to make you?

unknown 36:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

That goes back to another scene in Chosen when it's Jesus talking to James, small James, right? No, small Peter.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

No, it's it's small James, the one that he doesn't heal.

SPEAKER_02 36:54

Yeah, yes, that he doesn't heal. And he says specifically to him, I know you don't understand right now. Yeah, but I promise you you will be healed one day, but right now is not your time. I was like, Oh, that dropped me to my knees. I I cried so hard.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Did I ask again?

SPEAKER_02 37:12

Please, please, you're healed, you're because he's he's literally a disciple walking with Jesus and he's watching Jesus heal miraculously, all these other people, and he's like, What about me, man? Like Jesus. And he says, Not yet. People are gonna learn so much from you because of the way you live your life, yeah, and even in pain. Oh so uh, Phil, just knowing that there is so much, there's a lot that a pastor goes through. You you and I have had conversations and you've even been honest with the church about how you're like, I I said, I'm gonna go, I I think I'm gonna become a minister. And you're like, Well, I'm gonna talk you out of that. And I was like, Oh, well, isn't that an interesting perspective?

SPEAKER_01 38:02

I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:03

And you said, because if I talk you out of it, then you're really not meant to do it.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

But if I can't talk you out of it, then I know that God is working in your life in a really cool way.

SPEAKER_03 38:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:14

And I still proceeded, and it's fabulous because I just love learning so much more biblical truth. But as a pastor, um, the attacks and the questions and the traps and all the things that you go through, like, can you just share with us in the audience a little bit of like some moments you've had that you've overcome with?

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Yeah, well, you know, I think the the I think the big test was COVID, right? Um, COVID changed the world and and uh during COVID, everybody, you know, scattered and did whatever and and uh how you couldn't make a right decision for anyone. Didn't matter what decision you made, people were mad at you on both sides, and I got called terrible things, and people left the church. And by the way, all Christian people, right? Uh and and and that's I I went into uh a time of sabbatical rest really angry. Um, and when I got to the bottom of it, I thought I was angry at God. And I I got to the bottom of it, I realized no, I no, I'm not. I'm disappointed in people. But I I might have lost my faith in Christians, but I haven't lost my faith in Christ. He's still faithful in all of this. And um what I realized was the people that left the church, it wasn't personal. They're going through their own thing, they're trying to figure out, you know. Oh yeah, but it felt personal to me because I had found my identity in the wrong thing. And so when you're in ministry, it you get beat up a lot, right? By people of all walks of life. But I used to think, man, ministry is the hardest job. And then I had a pastor set me right, he's like, no, it it's not. He said you can either look at your job like ministry is the hardest job in the world because you have to do tough stuff, or you can look at your job like every Christian is supposed to be a minister, and I get paid for it. That's a pretty sweet game, right? Uh so my my perspective began to shift. And out of my sabbatical, God really was teaching me uh two lessons. One, separate your identity uh from the church before you do anything, you're enough for me. Like you don't have to get up and prove you love me. You don't have to get like when you wake up in the morning before your feet hit the floor, you're enough for me. And I needed to get there again. Number two, stop chasing success. The only success worth chasing is obedience. And so that's been a real game changer in my life. So I came out of that season. I and I, the way that I lead, the way that I live now, if I have the best day, like Sunday, last Sunday we baptized 36 people. Incredible. Right?

SPEAKER_03 40:56

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

The best day. I'm not laying my head on my pillow with any sense of pride or any sense of man, we're just things are going great. I lay my head on my pillow, I go, God, you let me be part of 36 baptisms. Thank you. You're so good. Be a part of the credit, right? Yeah, all of it. I was obedient and you let me be part of 36 baptisms. On my worst day, when somebody's lit me up for something or they're angry or you know, call me a heretic or whatever, which happens all the time. Um I lay my head on my pillow and I ask myself, was I obedient? And if I can, in good conscience, say, Yeah, I did what you asked me to do, I fall asleep with so much peace because I'm not responsible. So I think, um, I think the problem with a lot of Christians now is we don't trust the Holy Spirit. And so when you don't trust the Holy Spirit, you play the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_03 41:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

Right. So we go, we gotta turn politics around, we gotta save people, we gotta, we we gotta change heart. No, we don't. Share your faith, show people love, love, love the Lord your God with your whole heart, soul, mind, strength, love others as you love yourself, pray for the lost, trust the Holy Spirit with the fruit. Because it's the fruit of the spirit, it's not the fruit of me or my ministry. And when I don't trust the spirit, I try to play the spirit and then it doesn't go well, and then I'm mad.

unknown 42:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

So I I'm not I'm not in control. I don't have to save anybody in the church. I proclaim the truth and I trust the Holy Spirit.

unknown 42:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

And and so now my only responsibility is just be obedient. Just do the next thing.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

Yeah, show up. I just get to show up, be obedient.

SPEAKER_00 42:43

Ministry is way better when you're just being obedient to him.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

Yeah, that is very, very true.

SPEAKER_01 42:48

I think I think it could be, I understand that it's humans be humans. Humans are messy, right? It's too hot, it's too cold, it's too long, it's too short, it's too loud, it's too soft.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Uh it's too bright, it's too dark. It's the wrong emphasis.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

Wrong music, wrong lighting, wrong whatever. Coffee's not good enough. Coffee's not loud enough. If you ever need a hug, I'll be here for you, man. I appreciate it. But yeah, you know, all of that stuff, humans, humans are humans, which is why it's so important for me to not be doing this. You know, Paul says, uh, if I was doing this to please people, I wouldn't be serving Christ.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

But I'm doing this to please him.

SPEAKER_02 43:23

So speaking of that, please tell us about your book. Okay. Because that what you just said is like you wrote a book recently and are just releasing it.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

And so to just wrap us up, man. I can't, I was like, Do we have time for a two-minute story?

SPEAKER_00 43:37

Yeah. Okay. Uh I was the guy who never wanted to write a book. I didn't want to be the pastor who wrote a book. I don't want a platform. I don't, that's just not like my thing. And uh I couldn't, the Holy Spirit kept just pushing on me, pushing on me, pushing on me. And I was like, what would I even write a book on? And I I remember the day I finally said, Nope, I'm not gonna write a book. I'm not gonna do it. I just, I I know. I I just don't feel I'm not gonna lead a write a book. 15 minutes later, my phone rang. Uh as a friend, and she said, Um, I was just praying and felt like the Holy Spirit told me that you need to ask you if you're writing a book. And I was like, What?

SPEAKER_02 44:12

That's a little on the nose. 15 minutes later.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

So I said, I told her story, she starts crying, she said, I don't know what it's about, but you need to write this book. Well, I tried to dismiss that, but about I I decided I sent a uh email to a friend who's in the publishing world, and I said, You know, I don't know. I I'm not saying I'm writing a book, but if I did, what's the process? She did not answer. 10 minutes later, she picked up the phone and called me. She said, as soon as I got your email, I started praying. I don't know if we'll publish it, but you need to write this book. Whatever it's on, you need to write this book. Well, that happened different scenarios like that, three or four times that day. And I still had the audacity to be like, I'll sleep on it. I'll sleep on it, right? Uh maybe I'll sleep on it. So I did. I I went, and the next morning I woke up and I'm doing uh Duolingo to speak.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

Which language?

SPEAKER_00 45:00

Okay, Spanish, yeah. Uh and uh I'm like two, three years in now. Uh, but I woke up and I was doing my lesson that morning. He said, Translate these sentences. We're writing a book this summer. Are we gonna write a book? We should write a book. And I was like, fine. And so that's how I uh I sat down, I brainstormed, and what is this book even gonna be about? And immediately the Holy Spirit just gave me the whole outline of chapters, and I went, I know what this book is about. Yeah, I know what book I'm writing. And the actual process of writing the book was just I don't know what normally writing a book is like, but it was just this every time I sat down to write, it was like the Holy Spirit grabbed the grabbed the keyboard and went to town. And and uh so it's a book uh called Jesus Be the Centerfold, choosing covenant faith over airbrushed Christianity. And it is um it is my testimony wrapped up in what I think is plaguing the church, which is just we we we want the intimacy of a relationship with God without the work. We so we settle for a false version of intimacy that's airbrushed. We make Jesus a Jesus that fits us, that we feel we can love, and we love him as long as things are going well. But why is it worth it to say it's not about me, it's about you, and to to actually so it follow the the book follows um the biblical covenants from Adam and Eve all the way to the covenant in Christ and just argues why it's a value to choose it. So that's the book releases May 18th. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

May 18th. We I am excited too. It's been fun to be a process of this.

SPEAKER_03 46:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:41

And to our audience, just to give a shout out to Jeremy Brown, because he has been on our uh two different episodes, so one by himself and then one with his wife. And he's an incredible publisher. And I know you went through a couple different moments where because your your book is bold and it's real and it's raw, and it's uh for a lot of people, it hits places where they're they get a little bit offended. And I believe that that's a good thing. Some people don't want to publish that. Can you can you share what the previous title was?

SPEAKER_00 47:12

Uh so the previous title was spiritual pornography, uh, which is there's an illustration in the book that talks about that and why that would have been the original title. And uh Jeremy uh helped me refine it to what it is now, uh, which I think is equally offensive to Christians. So it's perfect.

SPEAKER_03 47:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Interesting compromise. Yeah, right. Uh, but but I knew Jeremy was, I knew Throne Publishing was the right publishing company because I kept running into uh publishers that would say we would make you edit too much of this book in order for us to publish it, and that's not fair to you, which I really appreciated. And Jeremy went the opposite way and said, I want to make sure we publish this in a way that you have complete control over the content. Yeah. And so uh yeah, it's been a it's been a blessing, it's been a joy, and yeah, I I'm excited to get it launched. Is there a website? Uh yeah, it's it's not live yet, but filltag.com, ph i l-l t a g u e dot com. Uh, you'll be able to get the book there. It'll also be on Amazon in softcover, softcover, hardcover, and Kindle.

SPEAKER_02 48:15

Nice. So excited.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

Yeah, I'm pretty excited.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

I can't wait for this to show.

SPEAKER_00 48:20

Uh I I'm thinking about audiobook. I I don't know. I let's see, let's see how it sells, you know. And um, but yeah, the hope, I mean, I think Jeremy's hope is that it takes off. And uh if it does, another publisher picks it up and we'll see what happens.

SPEAKER_02 48:36

But uh and if if you need someone to read it for the audio, I'll be your voice, or Amos will be your voice. You'll be the voice? Yeah, that'd be fun. Or if I mean we'd hope to have your voice. That's what I always say about the the the author, it's always gotta be the author's voice, but sometimes you don't want to.

SPEAKER_00 48:53

Yeah, you know, uh, I I recently listened to Green Lights by Matthew McConaughey. Oh yeah. And if you read that book, it would be terrible. But Matthew McConaughey, yeah, reading it, it's like, I feel like you're telling me your life story, and it was so rich. And so yeah, I'm thinking about it. I just I haven't made any commitments yet, but and all that free time you've got. That's right. Go ahead, just read that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:14

So oh, Phil, thank you for just being the church. Like you just have been, even through what we went through, and we were a part of your church during that time. It it it just you have changed the Kittlesons, our life and the wisdom and being a part of your church has it's just done so many wonderful things for so many people. And so thank you for being obedient.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

I appreciate that. And I get to lay on my pillow tonight and be like, thank you, God, for what you're doing in the Kittlesons and for letting me be a part of it.

SPEAKER_02 49:45

Yeah, right? It goes because we're all being obedient. Yeah, there's nothing more fun than that.

SPEAKER_00 49:49

Yeah, it's true. It's true. It's hard, it's uh not always easy, but boy, it's fun.

SPEAKER_02 49:55

In moments like this, I just go, thank you, Jesus. Like, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

You know, Paul Paul says for me to live is Christ and to die is gain. What he's saying is um, if I'm on this planet, breathe in air. Like, why doesn't God just take us to heaven when we make our decision for Christ? Because it's not about us, right? And so if I'm on this earth, breathing air, the life that's worth living, the life that's the most fun, the life that is a life lived in Christ. I'm here for his purposes. And if I'm living every day, missing his purpose, I'm living a pointless life on earth. Because my life on earth is for his glory, and for me to live is for Christ. And to die is gained I'll get heaven, I'll get to do all that stuff. But boy, if I'm here now. And so, of course, the life in him, while most hard, is also most fun.

SPEAKER_02 50:40

Couldn't have said it better. I'll be dang. Thank you, Phil.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

Thanks for getting it we love you. Yeah. Thank you so much for listening. We want to change lives through this podcast. And if you want to support this podcast or our guests, please see the links below for our Patreon and giving links.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

And like and subscribe and also share our podcast as much as possible. Thank you.