SPEAKER_01 0:00

Just a heads up, this episode deals with some pretty sensitive issues. So, parents, before you listen with your kids, we ask that you listen first. Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Here comes the sun do. Here comes the sun that say it's all right.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

Hello, fortitude audience. Thank you for being with us today. My name is Heather Kittleson, and I am your host, and I'm with my co-host, Amos Kittleson.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Hello, also known as husband.

SPEAKER_03 0:39

Husband. And today we have Koal in our studio with us. And recently, Qual and I have become dear friends. And um I just we share, we share a lot of the same things in our spirit. And so I'm so honored to have your story with us today, Qual. So thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Thank you for having me. Likewise. It's definitely a treasured um space and definitely love to connect with you guys as we share these moments and tell our stories.

SPEAKER_03 1:08

Oh, thank you. And you are a storyteller, which is really fun. The way that we connected was um by well, we just had bumped in bumped into each other a few different times in the community, and both of us were like, we're supposed to meet.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

And uh the more that you were sharing your story with me, the more I realized that it needs to be told even bigger and broader. So um hence the podcast. Uh your your just kind of go into a little bit of who you are today and what you're doing for your career and all those things, and then we'll we'll dig into your childhood.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Well, thank you. Thank you for having me. Um that's always an interesting question when someone is asked, is like, you know, who you are. And I think when we think about life, your identity is sometimes chased by the ones that care and the ones that bring you, like that rear you and the ones that are in your inner circles. So for me, um currently right now, what I do is I am a founder and owner of design narratives. And essentially that career came about being in uh client acquisitions for 12 years. So customer service and human-centric approach has always been my forte and just being around people. Um, so with my consulting firm, what we do is teach organizations how to tell their stories, just like we're here. Sometimes when people have a uniqueness in their life, sometimes they just may not have the words to say them. And I think uh kind of got that gift to understand people through empathy is like, hey, what's your story? What are you about? What is your what's your why? So that's what my that's what I do with my consulting firm.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

So which to me has a little bit of psychology to it because I felt like when I was sitting with you, or just maybe like I was like, you're like a therapist, man. Like you, it was like you would say words that I was thinking before they even came out of my mouth, or like just the way that you could articulate things. I was blown away. So it is definitely a gift of yours.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

Thank you. And I think it was it was part of my childhood that and and we'll get into the story in a little bit, but I think sometimes people understand others' emotions when they're able to just come with open arms. And I think our society kind of shaped us into being guarded and close, and then sometimes we miss the beautiful opportunities of connection.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

So yeah, yes. And you definitely are empathetic.

unknown 3:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

At least I try to be. At least that's what B would tell me. I hopefully have some emotions in there.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

So what do you what do we call it?

SPEAKER_01 3:27

And um apath, what's the you use the word empath in hard?

SPEAKER_03 3:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

I only know that from Star Trek. Yeah. Is that a real it's it's it's true.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

Is that a word that's used with real human beings? Yes. Um, one of the things in my my inner circles, um, one of the things that I had to learn is that even lacing emotional intelligence and and receiving people an emotional level. Sometimes, like I said earlier, we're closed off, but being an empath, you're able to physically feel the people's emotion. And I think sometimes when somebody's feeling sadness, joy, and then people who are high in empath or have high empathy, they just feel it. And then sometimes they don't have that person doesn't have to explain. We just resonate with them in that space. And I think though those are the human moments that connect us. So yeah. Yeah, it is foreign so beautiful. It's foreign to me.

SPEAKER_03 4:12

And I love this that you just said I used a word for you today that that you were like, wow, that was a big word, Heather. It's usually the opposite.

unknown 4:21

Like, that's actually a thing.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

You had to pause for a moment. And I knew exactly what you were conveying, and it was like, yeah, that totally, it totally makes sense. I just questioned whether or not it was like fictional, like a science fiction, with that was like, I don't know, Heather.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Let's pull, let's let's bring out the dictionary.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

No, I will tell you because there's this gentleman named Qual who who has told me that it is a thing.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

It's a real thing.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

Okay. So here's you when we started talking about your story, I I I started, I mean, I felt I my pen couldn't stop because it is so complex. So complex. So if we can go back a little bit to you are a refugee from Sudan.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

And you were 10 years old. You were in fifth grade when you relocated over here to the United States.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 5:11

But there was so much that happened before that.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 5:15

So much. So can you go, can you tell us about your childhood?

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Yes. Uh, thank you for that question. Um, I think when I think back before we arrived to the United States, uh, we arrived in 1998. Um, it's around winter time. So that was not, that was something that we were not prepared for. Um, you know, going back a little bit, um, I was born in Khartoum, which is the capital of Sudan, before South Sudan got its independence. Um, so in Khartoum, life was normal, just going to school as a kindergarten. And my dad was theologian. So one of the beautiful things about my childhood was that I stayed with my dad um during school when he was teaching at the university. And then I think that's when I got introduced into the world of our savior. And it was unique because during that school time, I go to school, go to kindergarten, and then the sisters of the universities uh babysit me after my dad uh is done teaching. And one of the things that my dad does is that he helps a lot of the community members receive care or resources. But that's a day that starts from 6 a.m. and ends at 9 p.m. And one of the things that was unique around that atmosphere is that the university was that I got to learn the aspect of community, the aspect of, you know, how to connect with others, even as a kindergarten, because the sisters at the universities taught me all those things. Um, and then during the summer, uh, my mother owned a brewing company. So I get to go stay with her. So it's you can see the different dynamics of relationships that was kind of instilled in me as a childhood. And I think that kind of played a big part in my current personality where I'm able to see the uniqueness of communities and integrate myself. Um, but during my childhood, it was a lot of care from it's like the communal care feeling. Basically, you don't feel like a person is foreign or that's that's that's a that's a stranger because everyone has that feeling of like, I care about this person because you're in proximity and you are loved. And that's one of the things that I truly miss in that human-centric approach when growing up. And in Sudan, that's one of the biggest things is that there's a lot of turmoil, there's a lot of despair. And even through that darkness, and it's kind of serendipitous that we're kind of sitting in the dark because the power went out. But I think that just goes to the journey of, you know, in life, we go through a lot of darkness. And and in my childhood, one of the biggest things that we struggled with was the turmoil between being a Christian in an Islamic country. That was one of the biggest things that was pretty, it was hard because I kind of see this this the stress and the turmoil in my dad's life that he was still true to his faith, but he was always challenged every day for his faith. And I think that showed the fortitude, um, no pun intended, of my dad. I'll take it. Yes. Showing that, excuse me, showing that he through all those darkness and through all those challenges, that he still wants to show that we are loved, that we are taken care of. And and even being a child, there's things that we weren't privy to, things that we didn't know. So we just live life that thinking everything's okay and that hope is just in a horizon because we have someone that cares for us.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Sudan is, you alluded to this. Sudan is mostly Muslim.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

So it's it's a mix of different races, but the prominent religion is Islam. So um, and one of the biggest things is that with everyone living in Sudan, your faith can always be challenged. But Islam was was the was and still is the fastest growing religion currently. Um, and I think within that demographic of religion, that made it very hard for us to to continue our faith. And that was one of the reasons why we migrated from Khartoum, which is the capital of Sudan. And in my childhood, it wasn't really, you know, flowers and roses. It was a lot of turmoil. There was lots of dangers at any moment. Um, we dealt with a lot of rebel groups, and one of the biggest things that we actually had to move and migrate from uh where my dad was at was because my dad was being persecuted because he was continuing to teach Christianity. And these are things that I wasn't really privy to until I got older, and I never knew why we migrated so much. So one of the biggest things is when my dad finally said that I don't think we're longer safe to stay in this country in Khartoum, he decided to say, hey, we should probably move to Acoba. Acoba was the village that he was born. But because of transportation and lack of roads and and all those things, you know, making the journey, it's not like, hey, I want to go from my house to grandma's house. It was traveling across the country, walking thousands of miles just to go to arrive at safety or feel a belonging with your community. Um, but so when my dad decided that, hey, we didn't know uh we are no longer safe in Khartoum, which was the capital of Sudan. And in that journey, there was other refugees that were making the same journey to safety and to hope. Because again, persecution, lack of resources, hunger, famine, um, and all the elemental things that happen and affect people's lives. And I think the beginning of the journey of us arriving to the United States was when my dad said, hey, we we are no longer safe here. We should probably travel south, south of Sudan to see where where our ancestors, where our heritage was, and where he was from. And to make that journey, we traveled from Khartoum to um Nairobi, not right, Nairobi, to Juba and then Malakal and all these countries in Sudan, you had to walk. Yeah, you had to take a bus, you had to take a boat, and and for a five-year-old and my how I had my brother then who was two and a half, who was two and a half, and and during that journey, there was a lot of danger, there was a lot of unknowns. And I think through that journey, one of the things that opened my eyes was the first experience of trauma. That trauma was when we were or going to this um country, I forgot the name of it, but it was as actually a village. We had to take a boat, and this boat was a three-day ride. But within this boat, there was a lot of rebel groups, there was a lot of soldiers. And, you know, being a kid, I was just blissful. It was a ride, and and that was the protection that a lot of kids and parents don't understand or kids don't understand that sometimes parents protect you from so much darkness. And once I got older and they told me the story, and you know, within this boat, we were traveling for three days, and you know, I was just exploring and walking around. And one of the things that just completely just made me pause and and seeing the essence of life that can just be taken so fast. And when I was walking around this boat, there was just this smell, and I I couldn't tell what it was. I didn't think I didn't know it was maybe somebody was burning something and and just walking around. And I was trying to find a smell, and and I know the smell got stronger as I try to like discover where it's at. And then as soon as I arrived to the source of the smell, it was in a dark room, and and I was you know curious. Kids always were curious, they just give they just beamed to darkness, and there's this there's a shed, it was a shed within this boat, and and it was it was really dark, and I was curious, and I was like, okay, I really want to know what the smell is. And as I was walking slowly, I was walking slowly towards and the smell kept getting stronger, and the smell kept getting stronger. And as soon as I got in there, they it was just the aroma completely like paralyzed me. And within this, I there was a little bit of light that shone that towards towards the back of the room, and it was right there that I understood that life isn't always as blissful as my parents had made it. And within this room, and the source of the smell, it was a young lady. And this young lady, she was crying, she had blisters, and and at that time I didn't know what language she spoke. I just knew that she she looked like me, um, but her dialect, she spoke Arabic, and then she couldn't really get the words to respond to me. And I kept asking, it's like, what is her own? Like, why are you crying? You know, kids always ask questions. And and as I got closer to her, the smell just kept getting stronger. And then as I got closer to her, I saw that parts of her skin was white and parts of her skin was peeling. And then I asked, like, what happened? And then some noise came in the back behind me and said, Hey, don't go there, don't go there. And I got this person just grabbed me by my uh shirt and just yanked me back and says, Don't go in there. And I was like, What happened? And then, you know, it I I just I just couldn't get that lady off my head. So then I had to ask, like, what happened to that lady? And then my mother at the time, she she said that I don't want you to go in there because something happened, something really bad happened to this lady. And then I don't know, she was trying to minimize the story to to save my feelings. Yeah. And she was just telling me that don't go there and whatever you do, don't say these words, don't speak this language. And in Africa, there's over 136 different dialects. If you say the wrong dialect, that can either mean life or death. So with when my mom was explaining to me, she said, Don't speak this dialect, don't say anything. But that woman was tortured and she was being tortured with fire and she was being burned alive. That's what that smell was coming from. And right in that moment, I just started crying. It's like, why would someone do that? And then, you know, it was day two of the journey, and then you know, started walking around again. I just the smell just even till this day, I can still smell it in my head.

SPEAKER_03 14:44

And it doesn't go away.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

It does not go away. And then that was a start.

SPEAKER_03 14:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

That was the start of the darkness and despair that through the journey I thought it was supposed to be fun. It was supposed to be, you know, we're going to a place that is like a safe haven. But every step that we went has just been another lens of danger, another lens of feeling uncertain. And that was the start of it.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

And that's stuff that your dad and your mom were trying to protect you from because they didn't want you to see the true evil of what other humans can do to other humans.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 15:17

On this journey, you said when you guys left because of the rebel groups and the things that you were seeing. Um as you and I were talking, I said, Man, Koal, I I have only seen this in movies. You know, when you see the rebels go into villages and just rip apart families and just take take lives, and it's very um, it's like, I don't understand how someone can have that much darkness inside them that a human life means nothing to them. Um, but I have yet to really understand it other than the spiritual battle, right? And and the evil is very powerful. And so the things that you saw is uncomprehendable. Even you mentioned that your dad did get put in jail for like three, six months or something, and and you saw he took his shirt off and he had lashes on his back.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Yep. This was one of the villages that we arrived at, and this was after walking hundreds of miles, and and there's always these checkpoints, and that's where these rebel groups are from. And when you get to these checkpoints, they either one, take your belongings, they ask you questions, or you speak the dialect, and this is where language is very important. If you don't speak the dialect, the entire group would either just be massacred right there. And luckily, my dad spoke Arabic and other languages to communicate safety, that we're not there to harm or we're not there to because then there was a lot of civil war back then and in South Sudan. And one of the things that was so prominent is that every step, it's like walking on eggshells. Like every day you, you know, you might not even wake up the next day. So within these checkpoints, these rebel groups basically ask you questions like, hey, where are you from? Where what do you have? What belongings do you have? And we had to stay in this village because we had to rest for several days just to gain some supplies. And and within this village, there were several soldiers that came by and they were like, you know, asking my dad and interrogating questions. And one of the things that I've I still hold true to my dad and why I look up to him is that when he was being questioned, he was asked, like, you know, what religion do you practice? What are you doing? And and then my dad had one gathering at this village, and he had a group of people praying together for the journey and for safety. And the rebel groups came and took him and started questioning, interrogating him. And and when that happened, he he was gone for a while, and and we don't know. We didn't know what was happening to him. And within this journey, we were taken care of, and that's where that concept of communal care, um, why we felt like no nothing was missing because we were still taken care of. We were we were kind of given blindfolds to what's really happening. And when my dad came back to us and you know, we prayed and and we were joyous, but my dad had was sitting down majority of the time, and his shirt was just bleeding, and we were like, Dad, what's what's wrong? And he's like, No, it's just about the floor, and you know, being kids, we're just like, oh, okay, you give us one quick answer and then we're okay. And then, you know, my dad was in bandages and he was just sitting in this room like majority of the time, and there's some people coming in the rooms, and this was like an house. It wasn't like a house, it was the the village was mostly made, yeah, so it was huts and all that. But in this room that he was sitting in, people came and visited him, people came in and did all these things, but my dad was saving us from seeing his scars.

unknown 18:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

And we asked him, it's like dad, where are these from? And then he finally told us, like, this was because they were questioning my faith. And he stayed true. He stayed true.

SPEAKER_03 18:42

That is happening all over our world right now, where people are being persecuted left and right for their faith and they're not backing down because we have the promise of eternity. And so it's a I can't even imagine the the battle that your dad was feeling in that moment of I I don't want to leave my boy, like I my family. But if it comes, if it comes to it, he's they they're being taken care of by others, which is I mean, we talked about your uncles and your extended family and all the people who just wrap their arms around you guys as kids. And um because you you just you never know when someone might get taken from you.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 19:24

This journey, um your your mom also passed when you were five. So your mom was not on this journey with you, correct?

SPEAKER_02 19:32

No, no. My mom passed away when I was five, and then you know, due to my dad knowing that he needs somebody to care for us. Yeah. So my dad uh remarried to my stepmom, um, beautiful lady. And one of the principles I learned about integrity and responsibility have came from her. Yeah. And and she's the one that made that journey with us. And one of the things that was beautiful is that she spoke a language that was probably saved us a couple of times. Um, and she's very strong-willed, and she taught me a lot of principles about being responsible by taking care of those people around you.

SPEAKER_03 20:06

So well, I am really grateful that you made it through the journey.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 20:13

To be sitting here with us today. And um your dad is is no longer here either, correct?

SPEAKER_02 20:19

No, my dad passed away. Yeah, he's passed away in uh 2021. Um, it was he his heart, but he had a very weak heart, and I think COVID just kind of just kind of just made it a little bit harder.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

What year did you make it? What year did you make it here? 1998. Okay. Yeah. So we got to be here for three years. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

No. Do you say three years? 98 to 21.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

No, I can do math good. No, he passed away in 2020. Actually, no, yes, uh 2021, he passed away. And and yeah, when we came here in 1998, it was uh my stepmother, my brother Dew, younger sister, Nepal, and then myself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:06

There was just 20 years you missed. It's okay. That's fine. Because it was 01.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Yeah, 01, and he just skipped the whole tablet. It's fine.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

So um, did you have any more questions about that? There's so many things in your childhood that we could touch on, but that's those are some pretty unique.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

I was on a walk with my little girls, my young, my two youngest, just this last weekend. And it was uh just it's like a three-mile loop around a lake. And um, the younger, our youngest is five. And we were probably a mile and a half in, and we could have gone another mile or two miles around. And I made the conscious decision that no, we'll just turn around and go back the way we we came. Yeah, and my empathy was uh was going towards her as just short little legs. And I think about the journey that you took, and uh in the context of they're capable of doing so much more than we than we know, than we than we think they can. Right. Like she could have made it around and it would have maybe been kind of hard. Yeah. But do you have any memories of long walks that you were you were just exhausted or you couldn't go any farther? And and and what your parents did to encourage you?

SPEAKER_02 22:14

So my younger brother, um, do he was about three. Um, so my dad carried him. And again, children have weak legs, they can't go for long, and you know, they walk for maybe a few hours. But what my dad did is he carried my brother on his on his back. And as you can see, the strain and and and fatigue that kicks in when you're carrying, no matter how small a person is, but as you carry them, there there was just so much danger in the walks. There's thorns. Um, and one of the things that I remember from the walk, being a five-year-old, I walked all those those journeys, but it was it was lace was excitement because it was we're going somewhere. It's like it's like a journey and and to a place that's unknown, but it's just exciting. So that was that euphoria. But my brother physically, he couldn't do it. But I think walking as a five-year-old and making that journey is like the equivalent of having your children walk from here to probably um Oklahoma on foot. On a daily and over time. Over time. And and this journey take took several months, and and it was just filled with dangers. And one of the things that I I was not prepared for is like when you gather in a campfire, one of the things that you also have to watch out for is Mother Nature, and that includes hyenas, lions, and all the things. And one of the things that I still remember is that it was probably over a hundred of us, but I think only about 50 of us made it in the journey because of wild animals. Wild animals, sickness, um, just people couldn't make the journey, um, other influences from other people. And and you just never know if you're gonna survive the next day.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Yeah. This is this is incomprehensible to me as a dad. If if if uh on this journey the other day, we just stopped and there were some horses that were came up to a fence against us, and we're just kind of touching this horse. And that in itself was nervous. Like we don't know this horse, we don't know what it's capable of doing. Yeah, and that was a nervous moment for me. And so just being the protective dad. Yeah, no less, yeah, I have to sleep, yeah, and there's wild animals, and I had to get up and I have to lead my family the next day.

unknown 24:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Has your dad ever talked about that?

SPEAKER_02 24:27

Yeah. Um, my dad, our dad, and that's the crazy thing is like our dad said like when you guys are sleeping, there's a rotation of night watchers. And and and our dad was just saying, be careful, stay close. And you pinpoint your caretakers within this journey. So it was like a systematic journey, like you know who to go to if you're lost. If you are left behind, there's a there's a rest point, and then there's a person who would run and give a message to people who are walking a little bit faster. So there was a system, but even within that system, there's still elements of nature that can still impact it. And that was one of the most beautiful things about the journey. And imagine us planning a trip. Let's say we're going to the hills and you know, um, you know, in South Dakota here. Uh, one of the things is is you feel that you have a plan. And within this plan, everything is has an itinerary. But back then, the itinerary is mixed with different people, different tribes, different languages, and have one air of the communication that means life or death for several people.

SPEAKER_03 25:21

Man.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Yeah. Goodness. Yeah. There's so much to learn there. So much we can learn on how to do life today because of that.

unknown 25:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

Communication. Yes. That's to me uh one thing. It's like communication. Why can't we just have a conversation and just be real? And think about that. You don't have just one or two dads or leaders within that pack. You have a lot of personalities, a lot of people who think they're right. A lot of in all the one common goal is survival and protection of their family.

unknown 25:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

So you have to back down, humble yourself, yeah, and just get there however you have to get there. Yep. I wish more people had that concept. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 26:06

And at the end of the day, we just we have a common goal, but sometimes we can get to it differently, but you have to have that strategic plan to say, look, here's how we're gonna get there, here's what we want, but let's let's work together within our strengths to do that. And I think that's one of the cultures that keeps community strong is that you get to lean on each other and call each other when when your accountability is in question.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

And love.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 26:29

Like the one thing that you have mentioned to me several times in our conversations has been the the the common theme was that it was about love. Yeah. Every beat, every beat of it.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

Because love does not discriminate, it doesn't judge. It's you you can try to manipulate it, but at the end of the day, you still have to return to original source of what it means.

unknown 26:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:51

So I remember saying to you, I'm like, I can I just can't wait to meet your dad and dad in heaven. Oh, I just it would tell you stories.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

He'd probably make fun of me, but it's all right.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

What a man though. Just I love your dad, and I um thank you for sharing him through your story. You uh I want I wanna walk into the refugee side of things. Because you got here when you were 10 years old. Yep. And it was not only your dad and your stepmother.

SPEAKER_02 27:21

Um It was my brother Dew and his younger sister, Nepal, who was uh I think just about to turn two.

SPEAKER_03 27:29

Okay. So you moved, you where was the first place you guys moved to?

SPEAKER_02 27:33

New York, New York. That was a brisk cold and and and right before we arrive, and you know, going through refugee camps and telling us about America and where you're going. They painted a picture that when we arrive, it'll be golden and sunny and and you know, blonde hair and blue eyes, and it was like angelic arrival. But in when you arrive in, you know the airport, it was cold and lots of people walking back and forth. And I was just I was taken back a little bit. I was like, these people, there's so much people, but there's no smiles. People are just passing by. There was no there was no connection. Even if you're in close proximity, there was no connection. People didn't you you think you see somebody, but they don't see each other, they don't acknowledge. And that kind of broke my heart because the picture and the image I had in my head is like you you get a scene, you you arrive, and there's joy, but welcome.

SPEAKER_03 28:27

Yeah, welcome.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

And nope, they were told to go sit over there. And we were told, and I that was the first time I saw an escalator, and it was quite unique. And yeah, we were told to sit next to this uh escalator, and it was a cold floor, and there was up maybe about like 30 or 40 of us, and then the the program that we came through just the person just came by and just gave us cash here's cash, cash, and then and then I was like, okay, I I don't I didn't understand what's going on. Right. And I was like, okay, and then we were told, hey, go here, and then there was a sign, and then you you follow it. It just it just it just felt like it felt like it was a programmed approach of connection, like there was no authenticity of like a warm person feeling in your presence. It's like, nope, you're just your number now, your number. And and if I go back to that human-centric approach, maybe being made feel like a number was something I never want to give to anybody. And I think that's probably encouraged my personality. It's like I don't want someone to just feel like they're just a number.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

Yeah, yeah. That's great. What do you remember what time of year you flew in? Um it was September. Yeah, that's cold. Yeah. If only you'd flew into Sioux Falls, you would have got that warm welcome. Yeah. The Midwest nights and then the freezing cold outside. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

New York it was it was cold and and it was like actually, no, it was right, it was it was end of September. So like we stayed there for like two or three days. So it was like, you know, beginning right about October.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

And where did you fly from to New York?

SPEAKER_02 29:47

From London. So we had to travel from Ethiopia to London, from London to here. And it was a 24-hour journey, and I was awake that entire time. Wow, that's a five-year-old.

SPEAKER_03 29:56

Yes, it's a journey. You were excited.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Yeah, I was excited and I was awake and yeah, and made it. And and silly thing, just uh I added note, the first American food. I don't know if it was American or not, but it was jelly. It was in the plane.

SPEAKER_03 30:08

Jelly. Yeah, in the little in the little container.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

I was like first American food. I couldn't describe the very American too. Yeah, and I couldn't describe the textures. Like I couldn't feel I can feel it, but I couldn't really feel it. And it was just it was just like it's like, I don't know what this is, but it's sweet. So it was quite interesting.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

When are there still people making a very similar journey today?

SPEAKER_02 30:27

Yes, similar journey, but not in the essence that you know the world develop and the country looks different after almost 25 or 30 years. Um, but the journey is different, it's a lot easier, but the turmoil is still there.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Is it still, is there still um people sitting sleeping outside with yeah, wild wild animals?

SPEAKER_02 30:46

And that's the different parts of the villages. There's parts who are that are developed and some parts are just still the same. Yeah. Um, there's there's access to certain resources, but because you know, Africa being called a dark country, that's it's not as harsh as it was, but it's not as easy living as people may think.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

So if you see someone in the airports, yeah, you you don't know what their story is. It's easy to judge. Yeah, but remember the story. Yeah, remember this. They may have gone through some stuff. Yeah. So have some empathy. Yeah, you know, pass on some patience, some love, some caring, compassion. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:20

Think about you were just walked for months.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:24

Months to get to safety.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

And here's someone's like, I just Uber was late. Yeah. And now they're upset. Come on. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

Yeah. Thank you for pointing that out. Because that's something I kept thinking about as you were you were just talking about how you arrive. And it's like, not a single smile, not a not a welcome. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't matter where you're at in life. It doesn't matter if you're pumping your gas. Just say, hey, hey, how like hello, how are you?

SPEAKER_02 31:50

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:51

What a I mean, a lot of people, I always chuckle when people always use the weather as a beginning thing, like, whoa, today it sure is rainy. Yeah, straight in the eyes. But it there's just trying to strike up a conversation with you. Yeah. So engage.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

And one of the hardest things that I always find out about engagement is that sometimes we overthink the human connection. Um, we are wired and designed to connect. But I think sometimes we put so many barriers and parameters and expectations, like, well, what if you don't like me? What if what if this happens? What if we don't speak the same language? But I think when when we think about the human connection, a human-centric approach to things, we just overcomplicate things.

SPEAKER_03 32:28

Yes, we do.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

We're over. It's it's just like just wave. And if you don't say uh if you don't want to say hello back, that's fine. At least I did my part in our connection.

SPEAKER_03 32:35

Universal smile, man. Yeah. Just the smile and the look in the eye.

SPEAKER_02 32:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:39

Like, I see you.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

Yeah, I see you. That's it. But life has evolved us into so many different things because all the turmoil and despair and all the narratives and all the things that happened. But I think at the end of the day, we're just longing for a connection. I think COVID kind of hit that reset button to say people need to check in internally and then check in with the externals as well.

SPEAKER_03 32:59

Yeah, they sure do.

SPEAKER_02 33:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:01

Um, so New York, New York, but here we are in South Dakota. Yeah. So how did you end up? I mean, you're in the US.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:09

Did you travel, take another journey?

SPEAKER_02 33:11

Yes. So after New York, New York, um, um, yeah, after New York, New York, it was Buffalo, New York, from Buffalo to Minnesota to Otana. Uh, and all we probably lived in like 22 different states. And one of the reasons was because that communal care and my dad's role then was to connect a lot of the refugee families to resources. So we moved a lot, and I didn't know why. So every grade I've been to has been in a different state or a different, a different uh location, or even a different country. Um, but yeah, that's that was 22 states. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

I've lived here my entire life.

SPEAKER_02 33:46

Yeah. And Midwest was because of school. No, we're close to 22. Yeah. No, we chose Midwest because of school. And again, like what this phrase we say the Midwest, nice. Um and and when I talked about, you know, people saying hello to each other, South Dakota was the first place that someone actually acknowledged and actually checked in with you. But from there, just you know, started my career and and there's a lot of connections and a lot of a lot of mentors, and just decided, you know, to either raise a family here or just build my career here. So Yeah.

unknown 34:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:17

Wow, but you're doing both. So that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

Um when you when you talk about the process of the refugee and just anybody, there's so many languages. Oh man. Like languages and I don't even know the number. Do you like I think that there probably is languages in Sioux Falls? Well, just in more than one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

More than one.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

There's about probably over maybe 93 different languages and different communities of refugees that live here.

SPEAKER_03 34:49

So in the n in the nation, let's go there. Do you think that the US is doing a good job?

SPEAKER_02 34:55

The US is doing a good job in in receiving, but there's a lot of external influences. Um and even now, people who've moved here and been here for almost 20 to 30 years who are refugees are wanting to want to either go back or bring their family here. Yeah. But the United States is doing a good job in certain things. But I think what makes being a refugee difficult is that those barriers, those challenges, and those determinants to social living. But we're educating ourselves on how to receive.

SPEAKER_03 35:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

And how to receive people.

SPEAKER_03 35:25

How can we do how because there's there's just a there's a lot of um, I don't want to say stere stereotype the right word, but just there's a lot of of things that we like. I just said when I when you and I were talking, like, well, I've only seen this stuff in the movies. Like you've physically, spiritually, and like you've you emotionally, you experienced this first hand. You've seen some of the toughest, toughest things. And so um I I as a little kid, I dreamt about having friends like you because I wanted, I wanted to just, I'm like, this isn't just in the movies. No, this is real.

unknown 36:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:02

So how can we do better in the engagement, in the communal side of things? It's like, how can we operate and not systematically, but just how can we, how can we engage better?

SPEAKER_02 36:15

And that's important uh question. And this is the part where people will tell them, like, well, you're such a people person. How do you connect with everyone? And I think that connection just comes down to saying, I don't know what your story is, but I'm here to listen. And a lot of times that's one of the things that we don't do as a society is listen. We assume what another person needs before we ask. And I think that's where that empathy is like you can understand, try to understand what that person's story is. But at the end of the day, we try to solve problems before we even know what the problem is. So sometimes just saying, hey, I don't know, teach me or or ask me. That's usually the first step.

SPEAKER_03 36:50

Curiosity.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

Curiosity.

SPEAKER_03 36:52

Yeah, just be curious.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

Yeah, seek first to seek first to understand. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 36:58

I've learned that one the hard way in our marriage. Seek first to understand.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:03

Wow. So what are what are some of the um the things because your your children are not experiencing the same sort of things. Um, but from a Christian perspective and the things that you have taken from the beautiful examples that your father has left you, how are you leading your your kiddos?

SPEAKER_02 37:26

Um, for me, it's is is always seeking guidance and then saying, I don't know, and then growing with your partner. And and the one of the most beautiful things about, you know, family dynamics is that you have to hold each other accountable.

unknown 37:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:39

Um, and one of the things that goes into social determinants of challenges in life is that when your inner circle of your support system of your family fails, that's when we start to lead into darkness. And and something that I've learned as a leader and for my father is that, you know, family is everything, but make sure that you hold yourself accountable and be true to the ones you love. And then if you don't know, ask for help. And I think for somebody like me, uh, who always been a self-taught person, I don't like asking for help because it makes me seem not necessarily weak, but it feels like I'm I'm not capable of doing something by asking for help. But the biggest growth I've ever had was asking for help and asking for help when when I when I need it, and then asking for help when I don't need it either. And what that means is you bring people in your circle so you grow together. And that's one of the things that I learned as being, you know, raising a family and just just asking for help. Sometimes we forget that. But our our society has made us to not ask for help. But I think that's where my growing point is, it's just asking learning to ask for help.

SPEAKER_03 38:39

That's that's really good. What do you got?

SPEAKER_01 38:44

I wonder if you can help encourage us and for and and help us form our thoughts on the current state of immigration in the United States with the context of the southern border and a little bit of the northern border too. I think, and I have empathy uh towards the tough situation that those people are going through. And it's a complex, very difficult thing to um to well to think about. Yeah. And then to form a decision. And there's there are very many strong opinions on this.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

From your perspective, how can we how can we form our thinking about this? I'm not asking for your opinion. How can we think about this?

SPEAKER_02 39:33

Well, I'm not an expert in immigration or anything like that. Um, but the topics of feeling the experience of wanting to be somewhere because of security and and to feel safe just for your family. One of the things that I feel that's important to start thinking about is is the why behind it. Um, once you understand the why, then it's easier to make things a lot easier to have an understanding of what you can do. But what happens is that, like, well, we can't do it because of this, this, and that. We always find the reasons why we can't do something. But the perspective of immigration and and people wanting to come to a different country or migrate for safety, there's lots of reasons. One's one for new life, safety. And a lot of immigrants come here for different reasons. Um, but majority of them come for a better life. And when we understand that concept, hey, if some people just want a better life, then how can we make that better? And I think in life, and and you know, when we're born, one of the biggest goals I feel is that to reduce the suffering of others. But we kind of tend to have society and systematic things that put a challenge in and and and a stipend to those things. So to go back to your question of how can we start thinking about those things, it's just understanding why people want to be somewhere safe. It's just in our ability and our neigh need to just to survive. So if you start thinking about that, we can to remove the political lens, um, social determinants and all those things. But if you really want to think about immigration, just see why are those people moving. And I think that's what that conversation can start there.

unknown 41:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:01

Can I add to that for a second? Yeah. The the the thing for me is I look at every single person as a child of God. I don't see immigrant and I don't see you're from the here and you're from there and you're from this. It's like we are all children of God.

unknown 41:17

Right.

SPEAKER_03 41:17

And we're in a messed up world that is completely in bondage in so many, so many ways. So it's like if we could just strip off those labels and colors and all the things and just look at each other and man, you are a child of God. Like that makes everything different.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:36

Everything. Because we all have the same needs. Yeah. We all have the same like different wants. Yeah. But the need for survival, food, yeah, all the necessities.

unknown 41:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:48

Yeah. That's that's the lens that I try to look through. I don't do it perfect every day, but well, I one last thing that um I from everything that you're saying and all the conversations that we have had, the one lesson that I have learned from you is the communal piece of it. It's like just um communal care. Like if we could all strive to really love your neighbor and we could all really strive to be there for one another and seek to understand, hear their stories out, and take care of one another, regardless if they're your flesh and blood.

unknown 42:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:24

Right. Like if you don't share the same DNA earthly, we share the same DNA in heaven. And so it's it's an incredible lesson that you have taught me and reminded me of. So thank you very, very much for being here and sharing your story quality for having me in this space and sharing in story time with you guys.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

And I should thank you for sharing your guys' heart and space. And I think a lot of times when people want to connect, and just last piece for me is that through storytelling, I think we can start to heal the human connection is just hearing each other's story.

unknown 42:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:55

Amen, brother.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

Thank you for having me. Yeah, thanks for being here. Thanks for being here. Thank you, guys. Thank you so much for listening. We want to change lives through this podcast. And if you want to support this podcast or our guests, please see the links below for our Patreon and giving links.

SPEAKER_03 43:09

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