SPEAKER_03 0:00

Here comes a Sun dude. Here comes a sign that say it's alright.

SPEAKER_04 0:19

Hello, fortitude audience. Thank you so much for joining us today. I am here with a couple, Maggie and Nate, and also, of course, my lovely husband, Amos. Hello. Say hello, guys.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Hi. Hi. We're happy to be here. Welcome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 0:37

You two are setting the bar for a lot of things, and we're we're pumped to get into that. But I want to quick first give a shout out to our buddies Ben Cush and Ryan Kahns from the Mandate podcast. I first heard your story through Mandate. And I've listened to it a couple different times. And it's just, it's it's an honor to sit with both of you knowing what you have been through, what you've overcome, and what you're currently doing for so many others in our community and truly around the nation, because I know you guys do. Yeah, you're just touching lots of lives. So I would love, Nate, for you just to kind of start out a little bit on your story, where it all began, and then we're gonna get into a lot of what you guys are doing today so that you can tell a little bit about who you guys are today and then go back to the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Yeah, thanks. Uh we're pumped to be here and thankful for those guys at Mandate 2 and just what they're doing and the opportunity to share some of our story. I mean, I think I I'll start by saying our story is is probably a it's probably extreme. It's not everybody's story, but I I believe wholeheartedly that there are components of our story that will resonate with a lot of people and it's uh part of why we want to share. You know, so yeah, we're Maggie and Nate Blaylock. Um we have we've been married for how long? We've been married for 17 and a half years.

SPEAKER_04 2:03

I love how he looks at you. Yeah, he must do the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

So 17 and a half.

SPEAKER_04 2:10

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

That was pretty quick. Good job. So we have three awesome kids. Um they're 12, 11, 7, so life's super busy, um, but awesome. And you know, as far as our story goes, I mean, I I think that I'll start by saying like I have battled sexual addiction most of my life, and it eventually came to a spot where it uh it just hurt everyone around me. And I had a moment of a wake-up call about 10 years ago because of the detriments that that role that that thing had played in my life, and um the last 10 years have been about getting healthy and repair and um finding re-finding what a healthy marriage can look like in the wake of a lot of hurt. You know, I grew up as a pastor's kid from a loving family, parents were always around. You know, one thing I I realize now looking back though, there there wasn't maybe the best place in our family system to talk about hard things, to talk about things that went wrong, to talk about things that weren't going well. And so I realize now looking back that that probably affected me more than I thought when I began, like we all do, to struggle with things or to not get it right, because we're all human. Um it it had a major impact on me of just have it all together, get it right. And this area for me of just like um sexual, unwanted sexual behavior, if we want to put it that way, started with pornography, you know. Probably like many of us as a young teenage kid, 13, first exposure to porn. Curiosity, curiosity, right? I mean, such a normal thing. Didn't really, because it wasn't really talked about, such a taboo subject. Sex, porn, none of that was talked about, other than maybe the once a year at church, absolutely don't do it. Yeah, kind of a uh kind of a conversation, right? And so, you know, that was a I I would say normal exposure, but that kind of began this battle in me of you know, this is interesting, it's natural, it feels good, but I must be really bad because I have these desires, because it again, it wasn't really being talked about. And pornography really, from the first time I can expose, I can say it just it had a hold on me.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

And this is this is pre-internet.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Yeah, this is pre-internet.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

This is still that exposure.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Uh, first exposure of you know, magazines in my granddad's basement, you know. And yeah, no real exposure, you know, as far as like having a phone in my pocket at that at that age. We're all dating ourselves. Completely accidental. Completely accidental.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Safe, uh assume a safe place for you.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

And and in today's world, that would be considered softcore, not even hardcore material. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

That's a good point. Yeah. And so I I began, I mean, to kind of high-level overview what that looked like for me. It's like had this place that I never really let anybody into. So it was filled with shame. Um, you know, good Christian kid who was called to the ministry, I felt like from the time I was about that same age. So I had these kind of like dual this tension between who I want to be and who I feel like I should be. And yet, you know, I kind of had this place where I was still struggling. And that stayed there, battled through high school and through college, this area of like wanting to get it right, but never quite being able to. And pornography was always a component. And it became really for me a my coping mechanism of choice. You know, I love to say that like porn is a pacifier for something, didn't really know that at the time, but just like stress, anxiety, fear, worries, facing hard things, that kind of became this outlet that I could do behind closed doors that nobody really knew. And eventually, like can happen with all addiction, uh this progressed. And as I faced harder things in my life, um, as I as I had secrets that I let nobody into, that area of darkness began to grow. And through college, um, again to like after I met Maggie, um, this area just began to grow and grow. And eventually pornography wasn't enough, and I began to cross lines and boundaries that I thought I never would. Um and eventually it blew up my life.

SPEAKER_04 6:51

And to speak to those boundaries, we're talking infidelity.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:55

Did I say it right?

SPEAKER_01 6:58

I think you did.

SPEAKER_04 6:59

Okay. He I was he was catching me earlier. Infidelity that I didn't say it. Okay, there we go. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

We were practicing.

SPEAKER_04 7:06

I love when you can't pronounce the word. That just is really sweet. I make up my own words. He teases me about that all the time. It's a Heather's. Oh my gosh. Sorry. Serious subject to the now laughter. So but I that that is something that I would love for you to dig into, obviously, because you guys are sitting across from us right now, married. And um what age were you at when you first discovered the magazine?

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Uh I was 13. I was around 13. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:35

Okay. And then earlier we were talking um before we hit record, just in regards to so that means grandpa was obviously looking at porn.

SPEAKER_03 7:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:46

Um what else in generational trauma type scenario? We speak a lot about that, and Amos and I are kind of on a mission with generational trauma and how healing has to begin in order to break off that tree to stop it. Um, hence what the alcoholism piece. Like, we're done. No more, no more. We're not passing this on. So it was if you have you looked further back, like what is it in your bloodline?

SPEAKER_01 8:13

It is in my bloodline for sure. Um I I think a couple interesting interesting things I'll say to that. One, yeah, I mean, my granddad was absolutely an alcoholic, and and that was talked about in our family system. Um, I'm really proud of my dad because my dad worked to stop that generationally and didn't didn't do alcohol at all. And so that was a really interesting thing that I saw play out. But again, this secret, kind of more sensitive, under the table topic of sexual addiction, I can look back now and see absolutely my granddad, absolutely, there were components in my dad's life that were there that I didn't really realize until after I began to get healthy and began to see signs and like, wow, there was there was an affair that I never heard about, right? There were things that just like these secrets in in our family system, yeah, which were there. So, yes, both alcohol, um, I think, and and sexual addiction, there was addictive tendencies in my family system for sure. And I think to to touch on kind of your question as well, I mean, pornography was the thing for so long until eventually as addiction does progress, yes, that became where it just it wasn't enough. And it was then having conversations with with people or women, and then that turning into uh multiple affairs, uh, both physical and like cheating in the marriage. And so when things came out, and you know, I I Maggie can share from her perspective, she had no idea any of this was going on, and it had gotten so bad that there were um there were just so many secrets and it was so hurtful. And yes, I mean, infidelity, cheating, it spans so much of our life and our system, and and uh it was devastating for her, and rightfully so it should have been. And I was trying to keep it all together, and that worked until uh I couldn't anymore.

SPEAKER_04 10:13

Nate, my my heart is pounding because I in my addiction, the hiding, the manipulation, the lie, it it is so all-consuming. So it's making my heart beat faster, thinking back to that, how I was hide trying to hide everything from Amos. And it was like just I was always looking over my shoulder. I was always so nervous that I didn't put something away or I didn't hide something, or he's gonna find it, or waking up the next morning and I'm like, oh my gosh, did I say something? Did I do something?

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Did I so isn't that interesting to think back, like how unhealthy that we were in our addiction? Like that was the norm, right? We operated that way insane in just secrecy and like even just like adrenaline, like so unhealthy, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:56

I remember like a year into our our couple's recovery when you looked at me once and said, This is probably gonna trigger you and hurt you, but I can't tell you the level of peace I feel that I can just set my phone down on the counter and I know there's no secrets. I know there's nothing hidden in this, and it can just sit here and I don't have to worry or hold it or harbor it. And and it was triggering for me at the time, and I kind of, you know, would have these moments of rage. But when I look back on that years later and the health that we have, like, yeah, how sad and uh stressful and anxiety-ridden that must be that you can't even find peace just sitting and watching TV with your family when there's secrets sitting there on your phone.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Yeah, we had that this morning. I didn't tell you this, but Heather's phone broke this morning. It's it's okay. It's a good thing. Heather's phone broke this morning, so we had to pull out a backup out of the drawer, and my all my stuff's still logged into it. And I didn't have any problem just adding you, adding your email to it, so you've got your contacts and whatnot.

SPEAKER_03 11:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Go ahead, search through it. That's fine. But to your point, Maggie, it's such a freeing thing. Yeah, just that the honesty lets me go about my day.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Yeah. And I think this idea of intimacy and marriage, like that's the goal. Oh, that's the goal to have an intimate relationship where there's no secrets and you're fully known and fully loved, and like that's what we're wired for. And I mean, I'm jumping way ahead, but I'm so thankful that we've gotten an opportunity on this side of life to experience that. And there's been so much grace given to me to allow that to happen. But there's hope out there for that. And I think so many relationships. And we were there our entire marriage. We just this must be as good as it gets, right? This is much how be how marriage operates. And to be on the other side is it's pretty interesting to look back and see.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

How long were you married when things started to unravel?

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Seven years.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Yeah. So we were seven years into marriage when when really things completely unraveled. And I think that health on the other side.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Yeah, I mean, like in dating, I had known he had told me, I'm battling this, I'm getting accountability. Our pastor didn't think that he should talk about it with me. Um excuse me? Yeah, yeah. I think that's what the best advice looking back. I think back then it was an attitude of like, you guys can't get too intimate with each other emotionally before you get married. There's kind of this I don't think it was great advice. Um, I'd think they just didn't know what they didn't know back in the 2000s. Um, the only books out were, you know.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Well you said back in the 2000s. That feels that they can't do it.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Well, our kids tell us to play music from the 1900s.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

From the late 1900s. So yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

And I think like the only books out about the topic at the time, too, kind of were like, yeah, men are this way.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

And especially in conservative Christian circles. I think some of the books were pretty detrimental.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

They were really hard for me to read because I did. I read them in year one of marriage. I'd found um pornography, and we read books, we did devotionals, we told no one because like who, you know, our Christian friends will judge us, our my secular friends will minimize it. So we told no one. Um, and then we we did, we read what Christian books were out there, and they made me feel like um this is how men are wired by God to be, you know, stimulated, visionary wise. Like um, it also kind of was like, if if you're taking care of your man, this will go away, it won't happen. Like it kind of put the onus on me and pray harder. Pray for your husband. This is how he's wired. And if you keep him happy, this maybe will go away. So I think our first um, those first seven years, there was probably only about three times I had found it because he was really skilled at hiding and covering.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

It being porn.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

It being porn. Yeah. No indicators of other things. About three instances of pornography. We'd use, we'd put things on our devices, we'd lock down the house, we'd um, and I just had no idea that there was so much more going on outside of that. But I also was harbored with guilt on being not good enough, not praying for him enough. I'm not where I need to be spiritually, so how can I call him out? Um, we couldn't, I felt like we couldn't tell anyone in the church. I felt um like I just wasn't doing a good enough job. And I didn't also know that no one ever told me you can leave, you can hold a boundary in Christian marriage and it not be straight to divorce.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Right? I felt like if I leave.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

Are you saying stay within the house?

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Yeah, I just felt like I can't, we're not gonna divorce over this. So what other option do I have? Yeah, put up with it. I had no idea that there was a huge gap in between and boundaries. And I think too, I never was validated that porn is a form of cheating as well. And so I would be like in my brain, like, it feels like he's cheated, but he hasn't. And I would never leave over that. Now, when D-Day hit, I it it was a blessing in some ways, even though it was brutal, that this is bad enough now that we gotta talk. We gotta get into community, we gotta get help. We gotta, I don't think, I think if there was a bunch more little things, our marriage would have never survived. It had to be this big to get the help we needed and to get into the community we needed. And honestly, if it hadn't been as big as it was, we wouldn't be here today talking. We'd be surviving in isolation. Well, I don't think we would have survived. Yeah, right? We wouldn't be here.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

But we also wouldn't be healthy because the way I think our story came out and my my secrets came out was such a big thing and it affected every area of my life. It affected so many different assets of just like friends, church, career, like so many different things that it forced us, it forced me to be like, I have made a mess of my life and I can't put it back together on my own.

SPEAKER_04 16:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

And I needed that moment to say, like, this is a thing. And if I don't work to become healthy here and figure this out, I'm going to continue to lose everything around me.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

Why do you call it D-Day?

SPEAKER_04 17:09

Yeah, I was just March twelve uh March 2012.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Yeah, because it it kind of for us feels like discovery. It's just like the discussion.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

The D is discovery.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Yeah, discovery. But there's kind of this component of just like, this is when like crap went down, right? This is just like it's the day for us when everything blew up.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

And um so someone had come to our house. Yep. Someone had come to our house, had given information to me that led me to, it was almost the Holy Spirit took this veil off my eyes because I just sat there and looked at him and said, There's more. What else is there? And he started with little, well, there's this one girl at church I've kind of flirted with, and I'm like, There's more. You wouldn't be telling me that if it was just that. And I just dug and dug. And I think the Holy Spirit too was working on him, and he just, okay, this, this, this, and this, and like maybe eight things. But the eight things were like our whole marriage, right? Yeah. Um, even an instance in engagement, right? Um, and so I was shocked, but then he would say, That's it, there's no more. I think we stayed up that entire night, yeah, all night long. It was like the knock was at like 10 at night. Um, I I calculate it because what I remember in the fog, we had a four-week old, we had a newborn. So I remember two feedings. So it was like that had to have been seven or eight hours that we were sitting on the couch and and hashing through this, and I'm making sense of my timeline of like, where were we? Where was I? How could this be the shock? And I was in a fog, but the Holy Spirit, I mean, I'm I'm I'm a challenger on the Enneagram. I'm an eight. I'm a really um intense anger's my primary emotion. And the Holy Spirit moved in me. And I remember at the end of like the eight hours, we're like, we gotta go to bed, we gotta do something. I I remember looking at him and saying, like, and he had said, I think I'm, I think addiction's here. He remembered Tiger Woods's story came out a few years before.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Yeah, I remember seeing Tiger Woods' story come out on the news and him going to sexual addiction treatment. And I remember in my head that day going, My life's gonna end up there.

SPEAKER_04 19:22

That's where I'm going.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

I resonate with that, but I I can't.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

The arrogant side of addiction said, But I can control it. I can control it, I can hide it better. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

I'm never gonna end up there. Right. It's it's both.

SPEAKER_04 19:34

No one was ever gonna put me in treatment, ever.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

That's right. So I had the same thing. Or I'm gonna keep these secrets under wrap. I can control this. And so but tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

So even that night, we he said, I think that's what this is. And so I had this inkling, but I didn't, I didn't know what that meant or what that and and then it all made sense, right? Because even early on in the pornography, he would say, This isn't about you. I get anxious, I get whatever. He could like say that, but no one helped me put words to, and I say no one because we did go to one therapist early on. Um but we just didn't know addiction, we didn't know addiction treatment. And it even took us a month after that discovery to find our way to an addictions treatment therapist because we still were in shock and fumbling and didn't know where and how to find the right help.

SPEAKER_03 20:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

What what day of the week was this? Was D-Day?

SPEAKER_00 20:22

A Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Was a Sunday night? Sunday night. Did you have work? It was actually my birthday, um, which is which is yeah, interesting. Um kind of like new birth. Yeah, I mean, we were trying to figure out how to operate. I mean, I knew right away I couldn't go to work, you know. So we were just trying to make those plans and you just called in basically. Yeah, trying to figure all that out. Um, it was just, I mean, such a blur. I mean, that whole month or two was a blur as far as just like arguing, um, out of the house, in the house, like trying to figure out it led to a leave of absence for him.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

And then I was on maternity leave. So there was like a month and we were just home together, hashing through it until we found the right treatment and the right help. And then he went for a week and did an individual, intensive, like eight hours a day with a one-on-one therapist treatment.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

And yeah, it was super intense, and I needed that to begin to understand myself and understand that this could be addiction and what that even means. You know, and I want to be clear with what you said like this wasn't all the Holy Spirit for you being like things were okay from that night on. Like it was a it was a really rough month or two or several years after the fact. I think we could say, I mean, it was, and rightfully so, it should have been.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

And yeah, I think, and I think anyone who's hearing this and and has experienced this can understand there was what's called a staggered disclosure. So that first day he tells me what I think like there's no way there could be more. He just told me so much. And then days would go by and I'd start picking at it and be like, What about this or what about that? And he'd tell me more information. And every time that happened, And it would like the first moment I had the Holy Spirit. The second handful of moments after I had pure rage. Pure rage of like, just how could this be? And then you told me there was no more. And I would just so there was a handful of really horrific rage moments. And in fact, what led to you getting treatment was me finding out one more final piece of information that was like a line I thought if the, if, if, if our child was ever around when a person was around. And then when I finally it came out, yes, there was one time that I had lost my mind and I raged. And I took the kids in the car, and I remember saying to him, like, you have 30 minutes to get everything you care about out of this house, or I'm gonna set it on fire, and you'll never come back in this house. And that it was really bad. Yeah, I wouldn't. So I don't, I just say that to like bring people in that, yeah, it wasn't just this Holy Spirit God thing. It was early on and along the way for sure. Cause if I even just sit here is God's work in my life. But there was also really ugly. And there was also get out, I'll never talk to you again. And that's when he probably a month in hit rock bottom enough where um a week later or or that very next week, he ended up in treatment.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

Wow. That staggered disclosure. Yeah. Help me understand that and why it works that way. You just you just cut a big wound open. You're bleeding. And like now's the time to get everything out. Because it's you know it's it it's just you know, it's happening, right? So what's going through your head with this this dagger disc disclosure?

SPEAKER_01 23:48

I mean, how what's going through my head is how can I still control the situation at the time. And I I mean that wasn't necessarily deliberate or manipulative, it was just a way of life. It was learning to control. Like, I remember my therapist looking at me early on and saying, like, you have built up so many compartments and learned to be, you've learned to be Nate at work and then Nate at home, and then Nate behind closed doors, and Nate the the coach, and Nate the worship leader who's on stage on Sunday, and like you've got to learn how to just be Nate. And so I didn't know how to do that.

SPEAKER_03 24:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

And so it was just so much control of like I'm still trying to manipulate and control my outcomes. And that was such a theme of my recovery is like, you have to stop manipulating your outcomes. And so I think that's what happens with staggered disclosure. And I think anybody who's had secrets in their relationship can probably relate. There's this, you know, a little bit, but like I I only will tell you what I have to tell you. I'm still trying to protect myself in the rest of it.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

And there was a part of it too, you would say, if I tell you, you'll leave. I remember and I would lose my mind and be like, and if you don't, I'm leaving.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

There were those secrets that I felt like I was gonna go to my grave with, right? I'd convinced myself, and I remember right before some of those coming out saying, if I tell you this is the last time we'll ever talk, I know it. And I mean, I'd convince myself of that. And obviously, in God's amazing grace and Maggie's grace, that's that wasn't the case. Um, but I think that's what happens with a stack of disclosures, like only telling what I have to, because I hadn't committed to full honesty yet. I didn't know what it was like to give up control. That was part of my process to get healthy.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

What a process of breaking denial for all addicts. Definitely just part of treatment.

SPEAKER_04 25:23

It is laying it all at the cross is the hardest thing to do because I couldn't have I couldn't have imagined my life without alcohol. And for you, probably like that control of hanging on just a little bit, because if I like I if I lay it all out there and all of it's and then I have to never look at it again, yeah. I can't ever go back. Like there's this, like, whoa, it's gonna be yanked out of your life, something you've known for so long, something, you know. So that that's hard because you know you have to relive and relearn everything. And and your trauma starts. You were 13 when it started, and the as you increased in that addiction, you stay in that age, right? Like that whole that that's a crazy thing. So you think back to like when I had my first drink of alcohol, I was 16. I drank until I was 40, almost 40. No, I was yeah, 40. So it's like, man, I was living at 16 years old, all the way up my my yeah, that's all.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

It's kind of like prolonged adolescence, yes, that that takes place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:22

And so we still operate in that as a married man and a dad. You see you're you were still operating in that young boy pattern, you know? So it's like just a little, just hang on a little bit. Just a little, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

And I think when people ask me, like, did you not see any signs? Like, literally, none. The three times of finding pornography, what I did see in his life was prolonged adolescence. I didn't know how to put that word to it, some laziness, some withdrawal, some emotional disengagement. I made sense of all of it because his dad was um very sick with cancer the first five years of our marriage. And so it was like he's depressed. Of course he's, of course, he and he would work really hard at things he cared about, like work, his work. He wouldn't come home and work hard at things that we should together care about. And so those were the signs I feel like I could see that there was something amiss in his life. You know, you make sense of it though. He's depressed, his dad's dying, um, works hard. I I think and he played a victim mental like a victim component of his lifestyle too. Yeah. You know, where we both were teachers and coaches, but it just seems so much harder for him.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

Yeah. You said prolonged adolescence. Yeah. It's kind of a therapeutic term now. I wrote it down. I'm trying to figure out how to spell adolescence now. But is that a term? Is that a psychological term?

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Is that kind of like these newer terms that we're starting to learn, like toxic shame, right? You're not gonna find that in like a therapeutic DSM manual, but there are therapeutic terms like gaslighting, um, definitely some gaslighting in our life, some toxic shame in Nate's family history, um, or or his life. Um, but prolonged adolescence, we see when addicts start addiction in their teenage years, and they just kind of never grow up.

SPEAKER_03 28:17

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

They just they become adults, and it's like I see it a lot in therapy when wives come in and they're like, the law needs to be mowed, but I have to like force him to do it. I have to like beg him to get out and do it, or I have to. There's just these things that like you should do in adulting, but you don't. Adulting, you're just stuck, yeah. You're just stuck not adulting well.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

You know, you're a grown-up and you can do some grown-up things, but then there's these other things that aren't very fun and are hard work that you just And there's so many reasons that can play out. And that can, but we see it a lot with addiction.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

What you're talking growing up, roles, there's so many different things. But I think in addiction, that absolutely happens and just keeps the addict stuck.

SPEAKER_02 28:58

I I can hear our listeners and the light bulbs going off in their heads in some couples, or one of the one or maybe both, the ones going, Oh, I recognize that now. What would be your advice to that person?

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Yeah, my that's a great, great question because my advice, and this is what I didn't know in the first seven years of marriage, is that we should have found therapeutic help to call some of these things to light sooner. Um, I made sense of them. I excused them. And I in my mind, cognitively at times thought, like, you know, I'll put up with that, that I have to either just go mow the lawn myself because it's easier, or I would have to like for two weeks be like, okay, you know, the like I'd have to like prep him to do the hard things. Um and I just put up with it because I thought, well, he's working, he's maintaining a job, and he's we go to church and he's faithful. So I can deal with those parts. And the real reality is no boundaries. No, we're a team. No, we are equally yoked here. And if we're not equally yoked at home, and I see it a lot in my clients who deal with that shame who don't work, women who maybe stay home and feel like, well, this is just my job and my role. And it's like, I think if you aren't equally yoked, and it's fine if that is, but then do you have access to the money equally? Do you feel shame when you spend? Do you there's gotta be equal power and equal jobs across family systems? So I would say talk about it, get help and be willing to say, I'm going to draw a boundary. And I hope that causes change. And if it doesn't, I'm gonna hold my boundary. And do I want to divorce? No. But am I willing to hold firm and get therapy and make some demands to get equally yoked? I'll do that. And I think people are scared, like, well, I'm not gonna divorce because he won't step up and do what I need him to do. But like, what's the alternative? Fight about it for 30 years?

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Yeah, I I heard a statistic yesterday from to back that up from the Gottman Institute who works on couples and marriages. And he said the average couple gets marriage counseling six years too late. And so I think it's this idea of right, like if there's challenges and you feel so stuck and you feel like, yeah, that just feels off. Like, you know, work with a therapist. Find somebody that you feel like you can trust that can help get in and mediate and help, you know, maybe be able to validate some of these things to be like, yeah, that is that does feel a little off.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

And if you go to therapy, lay it all on the table. Yeah. Because I can't tell you how many times people come in and they'll even say, they'll look at their partner and say, I know you're not gonna like it, but I need to talk about this. It's like if you're coming in an office to get help with someone, put it all there. We can't help you unless you put it all there, how bad it is, or what's really going on, or what your needs are, or what but people are so I mean, people are really scared to lose their marriage and lose their lives. And I get that. I do get that.

SPEAKER_04 32:01

Stepping into uncomfortable is my new favorite place to be. It sounds terrible. It doesn't sound funny. I it's because of the same, it's the same thing in so many areas of life, how we tiptoe around everybody. We don't want to hurt feelings. We don't wanna, you don't have to hurt feelings. It's all in your communication and how you express yourself and your needs and and your wants. And if you don't express them, no one's gonna know how to meet your because you we set all these exact expectations on everyone in our life, right? Like, I wished you did this more, I wished you did that more in our head, but we don't express like this is how it makes me feel if you play with my hair. Like, how how would my husband know that if I don't exp explain it to him? So that open dialogue and that open communication from generations before us, they didn't talk.

SPEAKER_03 32:52

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 32:53

They sweep things under the rug. And so I'm starting to get to a place personally, and I'm and I'm loving um some of the information, the input that I'm getting from all these different podcasts, and I just can't get enough. I love exercising the uncomfortable because that's where growth and beauty comes from that, man. Like I've who I have become today, and I've only been sober for three and a half years, it's like I just look back and go, gosh, dang it, what could I, where would I be today if I would have stopped seven years ago and enjoyed uncomfortable?

SPEAKER_01 33:25

Yeah. And I think I would reframe like how I'm thinking about what you're saying is like relationships are only as healthy to the extent that we're known. Right. Or like we're only loved to the extent that we're known. And if there's these places in us that like frustrations, frustrations in relationships, other things that that aren't being shared, like that relationship's now capped. And you know, when we work with couples at our practice that we call known counseling services, because of this idea of just like fighting to be known in a relationship, that's that's such a goal. It's like we we've got to be in an intimate relationship because where there's secrets and even just like unspoken secrets, right? Not even maybe these big deep dark places, it does put this cap on a relationship that the the relationship can only operate out of a place that's just a little bit unknown. And it just again it caps.

SPEAKER_04 34:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Do you remember the first counselor that you and I went to?

SPEAKER_04 34:17

Yeah, she blamed everything on you.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

Yeah. And I was just fighting for my for life. Like, this is not can't be like this. And she and I argued the entire time.

SPEAKER_04 34:30

It was it was so I that's the kind of uncomfortable I don't enjoy. Where it was like I'm sitting there, I know that I'm lying. I know that that I know it's me. And yet she in that moment was pointing at Amos, because Amos referred to me as I don't know what to do, this alternative Heather comes out of nowhere. And I right it was alternative or what alternate Heather. Alternate Heather is what he'd refer to.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:56

And she attacked him. How do you think that makes her feel when you call her an alternative Heather? That is your wife. That is, and I remember feeling very uncomfortable knowing I am the reason. We're I'm we're in here because of me, and I'm not even I can't even be open enough because I'm so uncomfortable. And let's just let it be his fault because then I don't have to be in the spotlight.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

So clearly that was not the right counselor for that. No, right. Probably the right counselor for some people.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Yeah, and I think that that's helpful to point out too to our listeners, because like I said, we went to three different ones before we found one who's skilled enough to know the niche that we were in.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Yeah, a certified sexual addiction therapist.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

And so they can they have their place and they can be really great for some people, but not all helpers are the same and not everyone like personality matters, what the therapist themselves has been through and the work they've done comes into a session, whether you know it or not. And if you don't, if you get an ick feeling with someone, then that's not therapeutic, don't go back. Unless you let me say this clearly Nate had an ick feeling when we started. If you get an ick feeling and it's because you have secrets and you might be exposed here, then you should have an ick feeling.

SPEAKER_03 36:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

But if you get an ick feeling and you're like, I'm trying really hard, I'm ready to lay it out, and and the and you just don't vibe, there find someone else.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

That's a healthy conviction viewer feeling. Yeah, it's good. So, yeah, to our listeners, if you've had a bad counseling experience, don't give up. Right. Very keep looking. There are counselors out there you'll you will find that you'll mesh with that will ask the right questions and get to the bottom of things. Worked with Heather and I.

SPEAKER_04 36:31

Yes. Yep. And we do have some really great suggestions for counselors. And so do multiple like Adam Weber, I listen to his podcast a lot from Embrace Church, and they have even on their church website, very credible, very um sought-after counselors with really great credibility. Yeah. A whole list of them. So good. Um, and you guys, I mean, I'm gonna do a shout-out over and over and make sure in our our notes um that we put in how they can contact you at known because it's called known counseling services. And you guys specialize in sexual addiction and many other things, addiction in j in general. I saw that you have a certification in. Um so I wanna wanna go back to something because this is some the person that knocked on your door that night there I don't think that happens enough. There is too there's this uh overarching thing in our society on don't get involved, it's none of your business, don't know. Like I've had multiple people have conversations with me and share their story with me, and they will say, I was dealing with this behind closed doors, yeah, and I know that people knew because people were talking, and nobody approached me. Nobody, even as these four little girls were in a house with a psychotic mom and were raised in this house, and yet nobody nobody came to the door and knocked on the door to make sure these little girls were okay. So when is it okay and when is it not okay? Because I bel I'm a firm believer that if I see something that is unhealthy and happening that is truly hurting someone else, yeah, uh it is our business. It is your business. And it may not be received well, probably like it wasn't for you to that night, but it look at what it started.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

Yeah. And and we had situations in our life because of how things came out in my story, that now we or Maggie had information about maybe other friends' spouses, right? Other marriages that that put her in the same position of like, what do I do here? Yeah, right, because now I have information that may blow up their marriage, you know. And I I think she came to a place of saying, I 100% know that I would have wanted to know. And and it's unfair for somebody to have information that would change the whole dynamic of our relationship and not share that and give us at least the ability to know the truth. Yes, and then make a decision based out of truth.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

The advice I would give in that is um you do have to be somewhat invited in to be heard, but it doesn't mean you can't ask to be invited in. Correct. Doesn't mean that you can't show up and say, I'm concerned. Are you okay? Do you need help? Yes. I'm here for you if you need it. You know, and so I think to come in, and this is where I get caught up in like, we can't come in in the pious Christian judgmental way and say, You're wrong, and this is why you're wrong, and I'm so good. And you know, we have to just come in lovingly and say, and for me, what I had to do was approach people, and I had a lot of therapy advice around that. I for trauma reasons, I didn't want to approach people and say, here's everything I know, right? I didn't want to throw trauma on their lap. I wanted to give them the choice to say, do you want that information or not? And so I reached out and said, here's the process we've gone through. I have found some information out in ways that, you know, your family system might be involved here too. Would you like to know the information that I know? Yes. The sad part, if I'm honest with you, is I made six of those phone calls and only one person wanted to hear me.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

How many called you back after the fact?

SPEAKER_00 40:22

Um they all of them, I think two did not respond at all. Another two said, Thanks, I know, but didn't want to know what I knew and what they were told was not what information was. And there was one who called back and said, I want to hear it. I believe you. And I'm, I need to hear it. Tell me.

unknown 40:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

And so I think denial does run thick, and people don't want to know a lot of times and deal. And so I think we can speak and and we can ask to be invited in. And with one of those, I did get a call two years later when they said, I have now seen it and found it, and I am so sorry two years ago that I didn't, I wasn't ready. And she called back and I was able to be like, here's here's treatment, here's where you go, here's what you do. Um, and so I think there's a level of like offering, but then there also is this point of like, I need to back out gracefully and say, okay, I love you and I'll love you from afar. And when you're ready, I'm here.

SPEAKER_04 41:24

Yeah, I appreciate you saying that because it is all in the approach. Yeah. It is all in the I am concerned for you because I love you. I I want, I'm hearing this, this has been said, and I don't want this to happen behind your back because this is your son's life. And I know he's out doing drugs, and it's gonna, it's it's talked about in the school, it's talked about at the hair salon, but I want to come directly to you and tell you because I love you and you can take it for whatever you whatever, like because there's a boundary there. There, there is a fine, clear boundary. So I really appreciate you saying that. It is all in how you approach it.

SPEAKER_02 41:59

Yeah, you could save a life, completely. You could literally save a life and save a lot of heartache.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

And I think one of the the definitions that we put on sobriety is like a commitment to reality at all costs, right? And it's like the the reality of exactly what's happening. And I think in order to be as healthy as we can, we have to do that. And denial often goes hand in hand with that of like burying our head and not wanting to know. Um, and that's part of the dysfunction. But yeah, I appreciate you saying that. I think that's a really important point.

SPEAKER_04 42:28

Yeah, people don't want to get uncomfortable.

unknown 42:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:30

Once again, you know, it goes back to that. People don't like to be uncomfortable and they don't like change, and it's just keep things the way they are because it's going okay. I don't want to know anything to happen that's gonna be disruptive. But the truth is the healing comes after the disruptive. It really does. And what I'm so grateful for is looking across the table and seeing the two of you, and you're married, you're in love, you're still working so hard on your marriage. You're not only out helping others, but I can see the love and the dynamic between the two of you that is so special because you don't get through something like that without Christ being the center of it. And same for the two of us. With Christ being the center and with Amos being determined to never, he's like, I don't know what this looks like because I'm not divorcing you.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

But I'm also I don't know how we can live in the same house. Yeah. But divorce is not an option.

SPEAKER_04 43:25

Yeah, like I I mean the the place, Nate, that we put our spouses in of like the un the gosh, I don't know what to do with this. I don't know what to do with this, but I'm but I'm I love you. I I made a vow to stick with you through thick and thin sickness and in health. And I'm so grateful that he did not choose divorce because this Heather is awesome. You know, like our marriage is awesome, and it's just gonna get better and better and bear better. So, like my encouragement to other people. Who are in really tough situations in their marriage. I mean, as deep as pornography and infidelity, as well as alcoholism is a disease, and it doesn't ever go away. I mean, I have it. It's it's something that we have to always be alert and on top of our game every single day. And that's a choice that I have to make for us, for our family.

SPEAKER_03 44:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:22

And same for you guys. And so just how have you guys gotten there? How have you what are some things? I know you say you you're going to therapy, but I mean, specifically, Maggie, from a woman going through that, there's so much um the the the pain and the hurt that you've had to heal from not being good enough and all those the mind, the devil, the way the devil works on your heart of being able to have sex together again, being able to kiss his lips. I mean, there's so much of that that so just go there with me for a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

Well, and I think for us, divorce very much was an option. And for a solid period of time, I thought that's where we were. I was super um blessed to have a pastor show up the next day, and um he had been through his own life trauma of losing a wife tragically that had changed his um his approach with people. And he he's just an incredible man. Oh my gosh. Him and his wife, his new wife had come over and ministered to us. But the advice he gave me was like, you you can leave biblically. Yeah, you might have to leave and draw boundaries. But he said, You need to make sure you wake up every day and say, like, okay, God, what do you want for me today? And then you do it because if you don't, you'll be as dealing with the same kind of life consequences that Nate has one day in your disobedience to God. And so divorce was an option and it was on the table for a long time. But but what wasn't on the op like what I did was daily go, okay, God, what? And I I probably spent the first year being like, Lord, just let him screw up, let me see it, let me find it so I can feel peace.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

First year.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

Yeah, solid year. Just watching and waiting and just hoping and and my praise probably for five years, instead of, okay, God, I trust you. It was, okay, God, I trust that if he screws up, you'll reveal it to me so I can see it. Just don't let me be caught off guard in secrecy again. You know, and so divorce was on the table. Divorce was an option. We lived separated for quite a period of time when we moved back to South Dakota. Lived in my parents' basement, and he had a room and I had a room, and the kids had a room.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Which is really fun to live with your in-laws right after, you know, two years we had to live with the club. So much their family system. Two and a half years. But man, they were grace to us.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

And so there was just a whole lot of other side stories to that. We joined a life group at a church. Uh, hey, yep, this is where we're at. We're separated.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

I remember walking into Sunday school class being like, hey, we know we need this, but we're separated. This is I know it's a married class, but it was so you were. So you were open and honest with no choice.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

Our therapist was really good about be real, be authentic, find safe people. I was not gonna go back into church again and put the like smile, we're great show on. This was never, I'm never gonna do that again. I'll not go to church and worship Jesus from home before I will go back into church feeling like I just have to um be a happy face here. If I can't cry and weep and be real at church, I don't want it. Yeah, yep. And we found a church that embraced that. We when we went, you you went within a month and sat with our pastor, right? Jeff Wheeler at Central, told him, Jeff said you need to meet the worship leader, met the worship leader, told him his story. Every time we were like shame busting. Yeah, right, just shame busting left and right. And um, so divorce was an option. The process of recovery has been brutally hard. And I think really in depth, thousands and thousands of dollars in therapy early on. That's why partly why we had to live with my parents. Um, we had to sell a house, we changed jobs, we um radically changed our lives and put all into what we felt like God had for us. And we woke up every day and said, Okay, God, what are we gonna do? And I think the first two years of our recovery, we worked opposite hours because I really didn't want to give him any time. And I was like, you know what you can do? You can take care of these kids. So when I'm at work during the day, you can be home with the kids. That's what you could do. I started caring for the kids.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

And I worked nights, you know, just to try to make and it was take steps to make this work.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

And it was those things that I saw, like, wow, he's doing this and he's doing good at it, and he's not being a victim, and he's really loving these kids, and he's going to recovery, and he's being who he says he is. It was like all these things I would watch and see, and then I would be like, Okay, God, keep keep showing me, keep what do you have for me? And God just worked, he worked in both of us. It was in depth therapy, it was individual therapy, it was couples therapy. And if I'm honest, I still do therapy. We both still Nate still does a support group. I'm doing now EMDR therapy on past traumas that are part of our marriage. There's huge trauma there, right? And you're right, like re-engaging back in um like sexual things really hard, some trauma, some times where I have to like early on would have to stop and say, I can't. You know, an image just popped in my head. I can't do it. Um, but we were coached therapeutically through that and to be told you're that's normal. Yeah, it's okay. This is how you can handle it, this is how you can stop and and honor where you're at, and then he can lean in with empathy. It's okay. Yep. And so we just learned completely new behaviors and completely new therapeutic approaches that were really incredible and impactful. And yeah, we like love at a completely different caliber than we ever could have. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

I think I would summarize what you're saying is like we had our own counselors and coaches who helped us. We found separately, separately, two different different people, yeah, separately, and then together as we were doing couples work and then support groups. We found support groups, and then we found some really authentic people in our life that we could be super open and honest with and real and walked with us on the journey. And I think both of those components were needed and are needed for us today to stay as healthy as we can.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

And then, and then, of course, Christ, like you said, being the center of all of that.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

Well, I heard you say you sold a house. Yeah, well, so we we when all this went down, we were living in Alabama at the time, which is where we Maggie grew up here and then came down to Alabama to school on a golf scholarship. We could do a whole podcast on the house. So, yeah, it was such a there were so many different mini stories within our overarching story. But yeah, so we we it was a great time. We had just had our second kid when everything kind of blew up. And so Maggie essentially said, I'm going back to South Dakota, I'll let you come. No promises. And I'm like, I get it. Like, I'm I'm there, I'm fighting for this. And so we relocated back to South Dakota. So our house was on the market for way too long in Alabama uh before it sold. And so that was a whole thing, just even yeah, financially and otherwise. But yeah, so we kind of had this massive transition to Sioux, South Dakota, and we came here broken, and it took years for us to put things back in place and put things back together, both like career-wise, financially, uh, relationally. Uh, it was a it was a long process.

SPEAKER_04 51:41

And in the midst of all of this, I'm just I picture these little human beings. You know, these three adorable little kiddos you guys have brought into the world into a mess. Truly. Like, because they were all born during during this stuff, you know? And yet um speak to that. We got about five, I we have about five. Oh, we're at zero, but whatever. That's right. Let's I want to talk to that quick.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

Yeah, I this is where I'll get really emotional because I think early on I knew that regardless of what happened with Maggie and I, this is that that was my why of of why I needed to get healthy. It's because I wanted to change the trajectory of my kids' lives. And I wanted to stop the addictive cycle. And we were gonna talk about it. And I think what's really hard is you know, through this, we created some new trauma in our kids' lives as far as just like you know those first that first year we were really disengaged as parents because we were trying to survive, and that that was hard, and I'm sure it has affected our kids in many ways.

SPEAKER_00 52:51

That they don't even know.

SPEAKER_01 52:53

That they don't even know. However, we know that we have the capacity now to have different conversations and change things. And um four years after, five years after all of this happened, we had another child and thought that was out of the realm of possibility. And so we had uh a Jonah in our life that was um yeah, that was so redemptive, and uh so many different things there just to to to touch on, but that we hope to change the trajectory for their lives because we are now healthier than we've ever been.

SPEAKER_04 53:29

And it just gets better and better. That's the that's the beauty in in this pro whole process is like they're gonna witness, they are witnessing you guys changing other people's lives, breaking the cycle for others, not just yourselves. But the conversations that we're able to have now with our children due to what we've gone, what we've gone through is so powerful. I mean, my 15-year-old wishes we didn't have as much knowledge as we do and talk to him as much as we do because we're so open, so honest. So, you know, he's like, Oh, mom, my friends are right here, you know, like good. They should hear it too. We get the same. Yeah. So I just I'm so grateful that being on the other side of this with you guys is just a really it's a it's a huge blessing. I love to see how God's working in your lives. Um and for anybody in our audience that that that this is touched on um some pretty heavy, this is heavy, this is stuff that people don't like to talk about. And the reality is, I think there's a statistic out there of like every other house, if not like a whole block, and then maybe one house is not dealing with it on how prevalent it's like and how normalized. Normalized. Because pornography on a podcast I was listening to this mor this morning, preparing for this, it says that the NFL, um, it's like baseball, football, and hockey leagues combined all their money.

SPEAKER_01 54:56

The average annual revenue of the porn industry is is greater than the MBA, the NFL, the NHL, and the MLB combined. Combined. Yes. And you combine that with most of pornography that's accessible is free. Right. I mean, it's it's mind-blowing statistics. I was thinking about too today, just like the tidal wave that is coming because we're yet to see. Right, like I mean, we we in our counseling practice deal with people and couples all the time whose lives are falling apart, who didn't even have access to pornography. I mean, that's my story.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

And now we've like kids.

SPEAKER_01 55:25

And now we have access that's in our pocket. I mean, the tidal wave of this is just beginning of how this is gonna affect our society and our relationships. It's pretty staggering.

SPEAKER_02 55:36

Tell me more. I know we're out of time, but we gotta we we just hit on something I think is really key. Yeah. And you said mobile phones. We talked about this a little bit before the podcast started.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. I I think just pornography is so accessible.

SPEAKER_03 55:49

Oh, goodness, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:51

It's so it's so different than other addictions because again, it's such a behind closed doors thing. And again, you can shut the lid of a laptop or or lock your phone and walk out of the room and engage normally. Whereas sometimes there are signs with, you know, drugs or alcohol or other narcotics, right, that things are off. You can really hide things really well because it's such a behind closed doors addiction lots of times.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

We talked this morning too as we were preparing. I can honestly tell you, we do a lot of even not addiction, because our goal is not to give a diagnosis to anyone who comes in our door. We deal with a lot of people who have just struggled with affairs where there's not addiction component there. I haven't in my office worked with an affair in the last two years that didn't have origins or acting out on Snapchat.

SPEAKER_01 56:38

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 56:39

Not and I I Snapchat social media is so normalized and it's one step away from that being inappropriate and unhealthy. Right. And um, and I get it. Is it because of the disappearing? The ease of which I can say anything to you and it'll go away.

SPEAKER_01 57:00

And I think our goal is not to like put panic in our listeners, right? But to say that, especially for young kids and kids who have have access to porn. I mean, again, that tidal wave of just unhealth. I think that we're already starting to see just uh ridiculous statistics come out of just um our industry and what we study with addiction and sexual addiction and porn, with just teenagers and young adults. And I I just think it's gonna continue to have such an effect on society and future relationships.

SPEAKER_02 57:30

Aaron Ross Powell So there's this tension. Your kids are and they're friends, they that's the new way of communicating through text and through these apps.

SPEAKER_04 57:39

They don't text. That's that's funny. Oh, okay, snap, right. They don't text. Jacob's like, well, no, it's a big deal. Because text I'm like, I'm trying to communicate with my 15-year-old and he said doesn't answer. And I'm like, why aren't you asking me? Well, you didn't I don't text. Yeah you have to snap me.

SPEAKER_02 57:53

So we feel that to deprive him of us of his phone is to deprive him of friends. Is when I say we, I really mean me, is one of the reasons why we gave him leeway to take his phone down into his into his room. And we try to head off things that would could happen. Just uh for example, I was on my phone, Heather and I laying in bed, and I forget what app we're on, but all of a sudden some full frontal just came up. It was an ad that snuck through the ad filters and was just there.

SPEAKER_00 58:20

And yesterday you did. Did you get it? Because normally the ads know when a man, they know by your searches that you're a man, and men get way more provocative ads on their phones.

SPEAKER_02 58:33

Just by the fact that I'm a guy. Yeah. Not not previous searching. You said that if well, if you went search for it, it won't pop up. Well, I wasn't and I wasn't searched for it.

SPEAKER_04 58:41

Because in my heart, knowing he has that in his past, and that pops up, I'm like, that gives me instant doubt of like, well, why would it pop up? Are you are you because he's really honest about struggling with it?

SPEAKER_02 58:52

It just it just stuck, it just stuck through. But until it happens, that can happen to our to our kids.

SPEAKER_04 58:57

It's happening to me on my Instagram where I pull up my Instagram and all of a sudden there's full, full frontal, like so. I and I don't know, like I'm a pretty modest person, so that happens to me, and I'm like, oh, I feel so dirty. How do you get it off? And I have to report it, nudity, whatever, and and block that. But I'm like, how does that make it happen so quickly?

SPEAKER_01 59:15

And the average kids the average age statistically of first exposure now to porn is now like under 10.

SPEAKER_00 59:21

Yeah. You know, and so well, even like the fishing of the sex industry, like, do you ever get a text that's like, hey, and it's a random number? Yeah, that is phishing. They're hoping that you and sometimes I'll even just to like re-solidify in my mind that's what this is, I'll be like, Hey, who is this? It's always some girl's name. Yeah, it's always bad. And and they're hoping that they get a random person and that quickly they're sending messages, sending pictures, asking for money. Yeah. And even a lot of people get stuck in these and on Snap, where then as soon as they get it, oh, I now have your picture. I know all your contacts. Give me this money, or I'm gonna release it to people in your contacts.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:03

Like it, it's it's I think really much that we could say on this topic. I I would really high-level answer your question to say it's not a matter of if there's gonna be exposure to these things, it's when. And so education is so authentic, honest, open conversations and education, especially with our kids, is really important. We have a 12-year-old who doesn't have a phone yet and doesn't love that, right? Because he is probably the only kid, if he feels like the only kid in middle school that doesn't have a phone yet. We did the same. And there's such hard tension because we want him to be in, you know, we don't want to be the awkward kid that like can't go hang out places because he doesn't know those things are happening because his kids can't get a hold of him. And so there's this balance between the best advice we ever heard on this topic is be a household that has a hundred one-minute conversations instead of one hundred minute, one one hundred-minute conversation about sex. So, not like don't just have the one sex talk and move on. It's like make these conversations regular and honest and open. And as much as you can talk about these things in your household, I think that's setting up for more success than I know that we got.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

We feel like our kids can't handle the why. And I think we have to tell them the why. I will teach my daughter what what nudes are. I want to be the one to teach her that. I want to teach her and I want to talk to her about what happens if you engage in that, and then kids in your school get it. Like you want to end your life. You wanna I wanna, we're gonna teach our kids. You know, we hide some of these words from our kids because we're like, oh, they don't need to hear that. That's too much for them. Oh man. And I think by middle school, they need to hear and know. And I want to educate you so you don't have to go to Google and search it and find it and read about it and get stuck in the dark.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:45

Well, if they don't hear it from us, they're gonna hear it from their friends.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:47

Definitely, or they're gonna figure it out and feel shame about it and try to deal with it on their own, which is not what we want. So we're big. These are conversations that you know in our practice as we deal with like individuals and marriages, we do a lot of family system work too of like, how do you protect your kids from porn? And how do you have good conversations in your house of what should be on limits to talk about and what should be off limits and age appropriate? And that that's hard. And we don't get it perfect either, but we are trying.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:13

And eventually we're starting to really have a heart and a push for law change. There needs to be laws on these things for ages, and we're starting to see some of that um happen. You know, in 2017, the state of South Dakota declared porn a public health crisis, but we've done nothing to change it. Our sex education in our school systems is still um abstinence. And I just, we've got to have laws, we've got to have change, we've got to have education. But it starts at the home.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:45

Yes, it does. I I've I think about handing a phone to an eight-year-old and the dangers behind this. Like it's not about just getting a phone and communicating with your kids. You are lit, you're handing a piece of technology, something that has enough power to bring someone to a moon. Yeah. Right? Like, isn't that like the the study on that is it's mind-blowing the amount of power that a phone has, and yet we don't teach, train, educate our kids on it. We hand it to them and say, Okay, go have fun with your friends.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:15

Yeah, the US Surgeon General just came out with some amazing statistics to talk about. Um, he released kind of a study just saying, like, when when cars were really when we were just getting into cars and figuring out, like, we made laws to make those cars safer, right? With those like seat belts and other things that like, again, we didn't have growing up. Um and and he said very clearly, we need to do that in the realm of social media and technology because we're now knowing, we're now seeing how this affects our teenagers. Yeah, and so we need to have more legislation, more laws in place to protect because we are starting to see how unhealthy these things are.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:51

Oh, yeah, people are ending their lives every every day, every couple seconds, right? Just due to something that's like, I mean, I thought we said 13 is too young for social media. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:00

Wow. Fascinating talking about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:01

As a technologist, I understand that some of the challenges in that because these there's this tension between privacy and constitutional privacy, and then what the government wants to see, just in it and in the name of certain things, right? And so it's really it's hard to find that balance. And then so then you throw it in young kids and there's and and the technology is is um there's still this tension between want to provide privacy and openness, but also control things, and then also these apps want to control things, and if the availability to control things is there, the app might have access to it, and then that's over reach for the app and things like that.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:37

Well, it doesn't have to stem from the technology, though. I'm thinking about all the the jerks out there that are doing this. They're the the big companies that are that are playing the mind games. They're the ones that are pumping the dollars and the millions and billions into this, into the product.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:54

Well, and the US Surgeon General essentially said these 13-year-olds have they're no match for the the smartest minds in the technology industry who are planning these things, right? Trying to get use algorithms to put things in front of people who are susceptible. So I know we could spend a whole time.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:08

Oh man, that's yeah, that is another episode. The uh your story is is beautiful. It's beautiful. I my heart obviously goes out knowing the pain that you had to go through to get to this, get to this place. Um, but it's really beautiful. And so thank you for everything that you're doing for not only your own personal family and your kiddos and changing your your generational trajectory for them. Like they they don't even know yet how unbelievably blessed they are that they have the two of you as parents. So um just thank you for sharing your story, for your advice, all your professional advice. It's it's thank you. I we don't even have that problem, and I want to come sit in your office and just and learn more. So God is good. He's gonna be a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:51

Yeah, thanks for the opportunity to share. I'm so thankful for the grace that Maggie showed me. Um certainly wouldn't be here without it, wouldn't be here without the boundaries as well. I say it all the time. I I wish I could have got here differently. I wish I could have made different choices that wouldn't have hurt the people around me so much. But I I also wouldn't trade where I am today for anything because and I think I want to offer hope to marriages out there that feel stuck and feel like there's no hope, is there is hope to not just survive and endure, but to have a really awesome, uh intimate relationship. And so thankful for that on the side of things.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:24

That's one of the amazing things about a relationship with Christ. And I think also one of many reasons why to me this is no doubt that there's a God, is that I hear that over and over. I glad when I I wouldn't want to do it again, but I'm glad it happened because of the way God's using it. It's the same thing for Heather and I. I wouldn't want to go through that again. But through the redemption of of of of sins and what God can do, it's one of those things where you go, I'm happy to use it. That's right. And it's just there's no way you can get through that without a guide.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:57

Well, thanks for what you guys are doing too. Appreciate the authentic conversations. Thanks for us.