SPEAKER_02 0:00

Here comes a sun do. Here comes a sunda say It's all right.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Hello, fortitude audience. I am your host, Heather Kittleson, and I am sitting in a very unique place. We Amos is here and Kim Sano is here. Say hello. Hello. We just drove almost it took us about two hours and 15 minutes to get here.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

We drove 40 miles an hour on a 65 mile an hour road for two and a half hours.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Determined. Absolutely determined.

SPEAKER_03 0:52

Nothing was gonna stop us from getting here.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Nope. Kim is a second cousin of mine who I have loved and adored for well, since I can remember remembering people. So Kim, I'm so grateful to be sitting here with you in your sweet farmhouse. So thank you for inviting us. Yeah, I'm glad you could come. It's um when Amos and I walked in here, first off, we pull into her farm place in southwestern Minnesota, right outside of Marshall, and you're in some sort of thing. Compact tractor. A compact tractor as we're pulling in because there was so much snow, and she was out scooping a place for us to park. And we get in here, and the first thing I said when I walked into the sweet farmhouse that I remember coming here as a kid. Um, it's like an Airbnb, like a beautiful little um those breakfast houses that you stay at and you come downstairs and they're making you breakfast and coffee, and there's china, and there's a farm dog and two cats.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Goodies on the table. Those little smells nice.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

What are those gumdrop thingies or what are they called? Spice gumdrops. Yeah, spice gumdrops. It's perfect. Oh man, we're sitting at a farm table with squeaky chairs because they're from your your mom, grandma. Yep, I grew up with this table set. Oh. And it smells so good in here. Christmas stuff is still up. Oh, so it I feel right at home. We only live less than 30 minutes from here growing up, and this farm has a couple big barns on it, and you guys always had horses, and we come out here for different celebrations, and so I've danced in your big old farm barn. Um, I remember doing the worm up in your attic. I remember the hormone.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

I have pictures of it.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

Oh, I'd pay to see that.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Oh, I think we might have a picture.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Oh back in the day, uh-huh. That's all we had was pictures.

SPEAKER_03 2:54

Back in the days. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

And that was back in the days when I was drinking and probably thought I could do the worm, and it actually wasn't happening. So um it was, it's just I have the best memories being here. And um, your four daughters are four of the most beautiful women that I just adore, all four of them, and thank you deep deeply. They're they're all deep women of faith who just are all married. One recently married a few years ago, is the only one without a grandbaby, but otherwise we have eight grandbabies. We do. Wow. So I there's a couple fun memories I want to jump into right away with you, Kim. When I I think I was probably just in high school, and I remember someone saying that, did you know that Kim wakes her four daughters up and they do uh devotion every single morning before school? And I remember thinking, how cruel. Like that is so cruel of Kim to do. Um, but that is why they are who they are today, and I admire that so much, especially now having three little girls. I just think I want that for my kids, and I'm gonna do that for my kids because as they have gone out in the world, they are all just Spitfires. They have their own personalities, they had just everything they do, they do with authority. And a lot of that stems from the amazing strong woman that you are that I've always admired. So speak to what you did as a mom and how you helped raise these women of faith.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

I did not grow up with faith, but I wanted my daughters to know that the greatest thing that happened to me was my salvation. And as I grew in faith, I wanted them to know my Jesus. I wanted them to know my Jesus. How am I gonna do that? We have to be we have to be authentic first, right? We have to walk the walk. So they would see me walking the walk, getting them up at 6 a.m. to do devotions. Okay. If we waited until they got done getting ready for school, we would oftentimes run out of of time. And so then you have to find another time during the day to do a devotion. So 6 a.m. Get up, we're gonna do it. And you know what? I recommend that for everyone. Let it be your first thing that you do. Yeah, let it be your first choice, your first breath. Think about the Lord before you even put your feet on the ground, be hey God, I woke up. What are we gonna do today? Something like that. But we did um the devotions, did they always like it? No, no, I got death stares, I think, some mornings, but they were there. And it was not like it was forced on them, but it was expected. Um we prayed at night together. And especially when all the girls went to bed together. Once they started being teenagers and stuff like that, it got a little sporadic, but we would pray with them, we would memorize scripture together. One of the psalms that we memorized together, Psalm 91, an awesome psalm, and it's doable. We memorized the books of the Bible together. All of us, we just did it, and um, so it just became a way of life. We went to church as a family, but when it came to youth group, if they didn't care for the youth group, um, maybe at our home church, it's like, I don't care where you do youth group, but you need to do youth group, so pick one. So they did have some say in how they walked out their faith. But there's scripture that says talk about it when you come and go, write it on the doorposts of your houses, things like that. And I did.

unknown 6:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

I, you know, the word of God is there for a reason, and I read it and I just took it literal, and so we just walked it out.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

As parents, um, you know, I if if we have to protect them, right? We have to set them up for success. And I think faith and foundation and making sure that they're getting the word, if not um, see like you said, they saw you, they watched you living out your faith, um, and acting as if Christ would treat how how Christ treats everyone around you. And so I saw that in you. Um, I was drawn to you as a little girl all the time. I, man, I used to think, God, what is it about Kim that is so there's just something different about her? And we, I mean, we went to church. I had faith in my house, but you were living it out in a way that I I think my spirit man was craving that. I I would be, I'd often think, gosh, um, what do I ask her? Like, how how do I talk? How do I talk to Kim? How do I, how do I find out what it is? And for the person who may not have a home that has what you gave your four four girls, what would be the encouragement for someone young or someone who um is not being raised in that? How what do you what do you do? How do you how do you find that?

SPEAKER_00 8:11

I think you just want to be authentic. It's I I wasn't raised going to church. I wasn't raised with faith in my home. And so I just did it my way. I think it is um I I I didn't want it to be plastic, I didn't want it to be, I don't know, for lack of a better word, pompous. I just I'm real with God. I talk with Him, I cry, I scream, I have a temper tantrum. And you know, the girls and I would talk about all kinds of things. But we'd always come back to the Lord. And and I think it's really important too when you read the Word of God, not to use it as manipulation, but to use it because God is love. Yeah, God is love, and that's the biggest thing. If you walk out that, God is love, people are gonna see that.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

And as a kid like myself, and seeing that in you, just taking the time to walk up and just ask the question, like, what is it about you? Because I have people do that to me now and will say, You are you're shine, like you have you have a glow about you, and I will always say, hands down, it's the Holy Spirit. Well, tell me and you want if you want to know more about or tell me more, and you know, and we get into this great conversation. So I would say if there is somebody who doesn't know, if there's a listener who's going, gosh, I've never, I don't have anyone like that in my life, look for that light, seek it out, like find, find somebody. And if um man, I'll help you. I don't care where you're at in the world, I'll help you find someone that, you know, because that that was so significant to me as a child, um, to see that in you. And even though I had it in my own house, it just was lived out differently. Um, but you were not always living that out. You uh referred to you were you were telling us a few stories a few minutes ago that I didn't know about you as a child. And so go wherever you want with how you were raised, if you just because some people especially will go, well, they got it all together, so whatever, you know, like Kim Kim Sannel, you have always loved the Lord and you were raised in a perfect family, and so you just go be you. But that is not at all the truth, and that is what I think we need to get over in our society, is judging from the outside looking in, because you had a really tough childhood and you just chose to live your life differently for you and your family, which I applaud. And again, is why I'm sitting here with you today, because I feel like more people need to know they're not a victim, they may have been raised one way. That does not mean they have to continue to live that way. So, can you speak to your childhood for me, please?

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Some of my earliest memories, um, I remember living on Park Street in downtown St. Paul, just really in the ghetto area. Um, today you would not want your child outside in your yard.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Where you were?

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Where I my earliest memories. And um, there were people in our neighborhood that did not have indoor plumbing. Um, uh, one house did not have electricity, and so it was a very poor area. Um that was the place where I my memories are waiting up late to have suppers because my mom and dad fought so loud and so long. We waited up late to have suppers. I remember one particular day standing on the corner, and my dad drove by in the station wagon. And it was we had a gravel road actually in that area still. And he drove by and I watched him drive away, and I thought I'm never gonna see him again. So I knew enough to at least know that there was a lot of trouble, and I never did see him again. You didn't?

SPEAKER_03 12:06

He left and how old were you?

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Seven. How many siblings? Two okay an older brother and a younger sister. So we moved in with my grandparents, um, and it was there that I was introduced um to forms of abuse. Um, and there are some generational things happening um that were on that side of the family, and um, I won't go into detail, but um I didn't really realize that it was abuse until I was much older. My mom uh we moved into a trailer court, and my mom met my stepdad, and I remember leaning my head on his chest and thinking, Lord, I don't even know God. But I thought, Lord, I want his heart to beat forever. And I was 12 and my mom married him, and we moved to a trailer, um, a trailer house um in Oatana, and and then after that we moved to a farm. So that was my first experience on a farm from the inner city of St. Paul to a farm. So I I was just um really happy about that, and we got horses. Um when I was 14, um, my stepdad's kiss turned different, and he was no longer a safe person for me. And I lived the rest of my life at home in fear. Um, I would wake up at night and see him standing in my doorway watching me sleep. I mean, it's just really hard to get comfortable. There's a lot of other things that would happen. Um, and I left home after I graduated, a very angry young lady. Very angry, very, very angry. Um, I think it was a year after I graduated that I met my husband. Um, and and um and it was in that time uh we we met in November and got married in May. So three months later we decided, hey, let's get married. But I was still so angry with my parents, I thought I don't even want them at my wedding. So did not grow up with faith, um, never a prayer in the house. Didn't go to church. And it was in the time that I um I think we were going to premarital classes, that I heard the voice of the Lord say to me, Let me be your daddy. And I was just like, What? Okay, you can be my daddy, but don't screw up. If you do, I'm out of here.

SPEAKER_03 14:52

How does one discern in in that moment? If you hadn't grown up with that, how do you discern where that's coming from? I've heard things in all in my head all the time, and I don't have that discernment so much that I you know, is it my head? Is it is it God talking to me? You probably hear he's 17. You don't have you haven't grown up with that, you don't have that relationship with him. So how does how do you how do you know?

SPEAKER_00 15:18

You know, it is really a mystery, I guess, how I know, because I have I have lots of thoughts in my head too. But there's a distinction, I think, when I hear something like let me be your daddy out of somewhere, nowhere, I don't even know where it came from.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

And just to clarify it, like it wasn't an audible, let me be your daddy. Like it wasn't right, like it wasn't an audible. It was a spiritual thing. Yeah, it was an internal voice inside you because a lot I give a lot of people that will ask me, do you hear? Because I'll say, I the Lord told me, man, and they'll say, Really? Did you like did he audibly? And trying to explain it to someone who may not understand at all. It's interesting the first time they feel it or hear it. They'll come back and be, Oh, it I know that wasn't me, you know. And it's it's fun when you do realize that relationship and how that connection, when you are listening, he will speak to you through your own. Yeah, it's it's powerful. So you hear this and you weren't having it, or were you having it?

SPEAKER_00 16:31

I said he could be my daddy as long as he didn't screw up. And that was 40 years ago. And he is still my daddy, and he hasn't screwed up yet.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

You have drawn a lot of a lot of your strength through that relationship. That that defining moment for you sent you on a trajectory that is sitting across from you today, that is so it's just your relationship. I mean, you smile from ear to ear and you think back. You had no reason. You had you had no joy in your life, really. As a as a child, you didn't grow up with joy, you didn't grow up uh enjoying your teen years because you had abuse coming from multiple directions. Your dad had left. I mean, there's just like I think about there's no your joy was com you didn't learn joy, you didn't know joy, and then you meet Jerry. So how do you go into a marriage with not knowing what relationships look like? How do you how did you do that?

SPEAKER_00 17:36

Well, I think going into a marriage back, um, so it would have been over 40 years ago, was quite different than today. Yeah, it's true. Jerry was very nice. And um where did you meet Jerry? I met him not far from this farmhouse, um, a town called Tracy, Minnesota. And I was in town visiting my grandmother, who was my paternal grandmother, by the way. Oh, and he was um at the I think the VFW at a family celebration.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

And that's where my grandma wanted to take my mother and me and her friend Evelyn dancing. And when I walked in, I saw Jerry shooting pool, and it was like there was something electric that happened when we both looked at each other. Oh yes, and so I danced the night away with Evelyn, my grandmother's older friend. And finally, about midnight, Jerry finally asked me to dance. And he said he had to because his aunt Harriet was gonna come and tell me because she was tired of hearing him talk about me all night. So yeah, that started it all.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

I would love to see a picture. Uh, when we show me, you have to show me later. Because even as a young girl, I would always remember looking across the farm or whatever, wherever I was and seeing Kim. And my heart would melt. You would, your lips would be red, you'd always have lipstick on red or pink, and you always just were put together. And I thought, man, Kim is so beautiful. And then all these four beautiful women pop start popping out. And I'm looking at all four of your girls going, you and Jerry made the most beautiful babies. Oh, thank you. So I'm in the moment with you at the VFW seeing two hotties, like because Jerry is very handsome and you're so beautiful. And 40 years ago, just that moment in the good old VFW, which in Tracy, Minnesota.

SPEAKER_03 19:41

Classy place.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Oh, yes, um, so you know, I have to I have to admit, so coming to Tracy from Oatana, I didn't want to go to Oatana from the cities because Oatana then was maybe 35,000. And I'm like, I do not want to go to a hick town. And so I thought 35,000 was a hick town. Tracy is like 2400. And so when we would come to visit my grandmother, I thought that was like the desert. You could see those little tumbleweeds going down the street and no cars and no people. I'd be like, does anybody live here? And then I end up meeting Jerry, and now that's my address, is Tracy, Minnesota. Uh-huh. So it's like, oh.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

On a farm for 30 plus years on 10 acres. Yes. With horses. Yes. City girl to the farm. That's actually a movie. We should create a movie. Yeah. I need to. And now it's all me taking care of everything. Right. So let's start talking. Let's talk about that. So you and Jerry, uh, you were what was how many years?

SPEAKER_00 20:41

We were married 38 years. So married 38 years.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Four beautiful daughters, eight grandkids, and um, there's a lot in between there. There's a lot in between. I mean, that we could go into all those years, but we're gonna fast forward a little bit to Jerry at age. How old was he when he was diagnosed?

SPEAKER_00 21:03

57. He was diagnosed with stage four prostate cancer. Which is not a good diagnosis.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

No, that's like one of the toughest ones for men, correct?

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Well, it doesn't have to be. Actually, prostate cancer has a quite high survival rate. But what had happened, Jerry's family ignored the signs. And prostate cancer runs in the Sano family.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

I didn't know that either. But he sat down next to me. I had been gone a week for some classes, and he sat down next to me and he said, Um, my PSA is high. I think it's like 8,000. And I said, What's a PSA? And then my youngest daughter came back in the room, so he shut up. So I I got on my phone and I looked it up and I thought, uh, he must mean 8.000 or something, because there's nothing that says 8,000. He had to go back in to get it retested on Monday, and it was over 8,000 by then. And so they rushed us. And that was the end of September, beginning of October, he started his chemo treatments. And after his first chemo treatment, he said, I didn't know I could feel this good again. I mean, it just like it was amazing. He never got down under, I think, 800 PSA. So from 8,000 down to like 800 was a big deal, but not enough to save him. So he survived his cancer journey for two and a half years. And the reason that I say that is because the girls and I decided to approach the cancer journey from a faith perspective, not a all is lost, this is a death sentence. Um and really Jerry never mourned his diagnosis. So we had a lot of people praying, a lot of churches praying, and I believe I heard that still small voice inside. It wasn't as loud as let me be your daddy. Um, but I believe that because of all the prayers, that um he was given two and a half years. And he really did live a pretty good life up until almost the very end.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Um, I heard a voice after he was diagnosed. I know that had we not found it when we did, that he would have been dead by that Thanksgiving. So to be given two and a half years, to just walk out life with him was just such a blessing. And we chose to look at it that way versus something is taken from us.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Which is not the perspective that a lot of people get angry and get honri um and truly start cussing out the Lord. Like, how are you? Why? Why ask? What did I do wrong?

SPEAKER_03 23:58

Why did you give me this?

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Yes, right. So speak to those individuals that are maybe currently just got the got a diagnosis and they are mad.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Right. I'm a processor and I don't leave thoughts just hang there. I have to I have to think about it and process it until it can sit in me in an okay place if you can follow that. There are many women, and I'm one, that miscarry. And when I miscarried, um, I was in a season of my life where I had started college. I didn't start till I was 32. And I had three children. One already had been born when I was in college, and so I got pregnant again. I was like, Lord, and going way back, we were given less than 10% chance of having children. So, um, and it and we just we kept getting pregnant. And so I um I was like, Lord, what are you thinking? I I want to get this done. I know he had called me to start college, um to pursue a counseling career. And I um so I was just like really questioning the Lord. Um in the same time that that was happening, I had hurt my back and I could hardly move. Like it took me like 20 minutes to sit up on the couch from a laying down position, and it was just really painful. So I was talking to my mother and she said, You need to go in and get a muscle relaxer. So I did go in, they did get me a muscle relaxer, took that starting on Friday, instantly could bend over and tie my shoe. It was wonderful. Went in for the ultrasound on Monday, and there was no heartbeat. And I thought, You're lying. Of course, there's a heartbeat. I feel pregnant, I feel nauseated. So I think you're lying. And I went to another hospital and paid out of pocket for another ultrasound to prove them wrong. There was no heartbeat. And I was like, oh. And I I, you know, um any woman that has been through a miscarriage knows that that is just like it just like numbs you, it just stops you. And you're just like, What? And and yeah, there's a lot of maybe voices or internal conversation going on, blaming ourselves. But I started college again um a couple weeks later, still feeling like I was pregnant. They said I would spontaneously miscarry. I didn't. I needed to go in for a DNC, so I did that. It wasn't until March when we had spring break that um finally, as I was just like, Lord, I just I need closure. I can't keep processing this. And the Lord said, My ways are not like your ways. I don't think like humans think. He didn't take the baby from me. He said, in fact, he said, My plan for that baby was nine weeks in your womb. That's it. And but you think that what you deserve is that the baby is full term, is born healthy, ten fingers, ten toes, goes to kindergarten, graduates from high school, goes to college, gets married, has babies, gets old, and then it's okay with us if they die. My ways are different than your ways. And then he said, and you were the only human that I chose to have contact with that baby before I brought that baby home. And I stepped back and I went, Wow. God is love, he is He is love, and so if I look at a situation that makes me blame God like He did something bad or evil, I'm not seeing God the way the Bible says He is. So that's the way we approach the cancer diagnosis. God gifted us two and a half years, and we made the best of it. We did. And um, he died in um the first part of September 2020, so during COVID. And when he needed to go in hospice, I very quickly made the choice to keep him home because putting him in the hospice house would have um alienated my daughters and grandchildren from him and friends and family that loved him and that needed closure as well. So um I kept him home and hospice came in and we took care of him here, and we we don't regret any of it.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

Jerry, to so many people, what I I mean, I remember I called him Uncle Jerry because we were so close. I mean, you're you're you're you're closer than a cousin to me. Um and I think back to how family and friends, you know, wrapped their arms around Jerry, and the news was truly devastating. It sent ripples across our entire family. Um and you know, this just even at the way that you even handled the memorial, which people I oh man, it was a celebration of Jerry's life. And you stood up in that front row and played a song that I'll never look at the same. The blessing. Um, if you do not know that song, the blessing is such a beautiful song. And every time I listen to it, I picture you, Kim, standing in the front row with your arms like reached up to the heavens, and you are proclaiming that over our family. It's a blessing over the family. And it wasn't an oh poor me, Kim. I just lost my best friend and my husband, or the hus the the the dad to these four beautiful girls, and grandpa to these kids. You were there praying, and it it it was like a moment that I will I just I will never be able, which I never want to ever forget it, because it was the most selfless thing. Because most people are bawling, and you know, like I know a lot of people in my life do that, and I just I wasn't I was in awe the way you handled everything. It was very grace-filled.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Well, let me be honest. Yes, because um, there I I I did a lot of my processing during his illness. Um, and so there were car rides where I was driving alone, and that's when I battled with the Lord. Not, you know, you're a bad, evil god, but it's it's like, what does this mean for for me? Like, what am I gonna do? You know, what's my life gonna be like? And just conversation, because that's part of it too. That's part of that journey that is gonna lead to death. We're all gonna die one day, right? But um Jerry and I planned to grow old together. We we planned a lot of things, and he he died when he was 60. So he, you know, he could have had a lot of life left. I mean, his dad right now is what 92? No, 90. He's 90. And uh so put a little plug in for Vern.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Yeah, Vern Vern's 90 in an ox.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Yes, yes, there, and so um, so we I did have my moments, but the funeral, the girls and I planned that. And what we wanted to do was to glorify God first and to give him praise for a life, not be angry that he took a life, um, but to glorify him in in the life that he gave us that we shared with Jerry. Um, the first song that we sang at the funeral was Another in the fire. And that was one that um as we were getting together before the funeral, Emily said, Mom, you have to hear this song. I said, Oh, I think we need to play that at the funeral. And that was the first song that we we played. So it's another in the fire by Hill song, I think. And then, yeah, the blessing. I wanted to bless the families as they left the church. And so I just, yeah. But that's my heart, is just I just want to pour Jesus out over everybody. I just do.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Yeah. So there's the blessing over the family because I I was just what month was it? September. So I was just fresh out of treatment in January of that year. And due to the generational alcoholism and trauma, mental, I mean, we have a every family has something, right? And so that is something that I watched you model all the time was you you were not gonna partake in the generational trauma and continue to pass it on to your girls. And to I mean, you you kind of stood firm in that, and I and watching that was um another, it was another example at at Jerry's memorial. So I guess can you speak to what that's been like for you? Because every family function, every um, you just you always have been different, and that you can be ostracized for that. You can be set apart as you're too good. And as I have entered into a world of sobriety, and Amos and I are choosing to make different decisions and do things differently because we really want to raise our children just to know better. We want them to know better. Because when you know better, you can do better, and you have you did that. So how?

SPEAKER_00 34:03

Well, you know, first of all, I think it's okay to have a drink. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think that's okay. But there are um so many families when they get together. The purpose, I think, is to get drunk, and that happens maybe starting as a teenager and and and just grows. And so um, not only when we get together do we bring out all the pot luck, we bring out all the coolers full, and we start early in the day and continue till late in the night. And um clearly scripture says that we should not participate in drunkenness. Not to be holier than thou, but first of all, just being honest, I did have times in my life when I did drink, and it never set well with me. So there's a plus for me. And um, but I wanted my girls to see, and and maybe you too, Heather, to see that you can have fun without drinking. You can have a party without drinking, you can have a party drinking water, have some jokes, do some dancing, whatever you want to, but you don't need to get drunk. Um, I think I have seen plenty in the family. Um, how alcohol is has hurt family members. I have seen um it kill family members. Um maybe when they were drinking something happened, or even it um the liver shut down. There's things that can happen. So knowing that my girls were born into a family where there's clearly generational tendencies, I talk to them. Not to belittle anyone in the family, but to say this is a generational thing in this side of the family, because my family did not drink. When they got together, they might have had a uh, you know, a drink or two, but they didn't drink to get drunk. So I I let my girls know that all along. This is definitely a tendency, it can overtake you. Um, be very careful.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

So I I just like I raised my girls, we talked about a lot of things, a lot of things. And I was just very honest with them. I didn't shield them from things. But when the when the drunkenness started to be really apparent, Labor Day Weekend was one of those weekends where we all got together. You remember those?

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Oh, yeah, they still happen.

SPEAKER_00 36:39

They still happen. Ours uh in in Jerry's family is a lot smaller than it used to be all of the cousins and all of the aunts and uncles and everybody together at Kevin and Tam's house. Do you remember? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um but yeah, I would just take the girls home. It's time for us to go and leave my husband there.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Yeah, but there's a certain there's a certain time that nothing good happens after. Yeah, it just doesn't. It does for those who are partaking, they tend to think they're funnier and everything is everything's great. When you're sober, it's no fun talking to a drunk person. No, it is not. I was no fun to talk to. So Amos also was raised in a family who did not. They didn't. I mean, I would see them maybe have a they have a glass of wine or a beer here and there at all the different wedding the weddings and stuff that were at. And I was like, whoa, this is I'm I don't even know. I'm not familiar with this. We um and it is not, it's not a shameful thing. It's not like having this conversation, it's not a shaming one family from another. It's just it's crazy, it's crazy how often we do what we know. We just unless you have a better way or know something different, like I I was so grateful to know that there is a different way. And it's unf I mean it's unfortunate I had to get to the point of almost death to seek to find that. But man, it's good when you when you put the bottle down. Life is so good, and you can have fun without it.

SPEAKER_03 38:11

And you leaving when when towards the end of the evenings when things got really bad. I mean, that's an intentional thing that you did. It is. And what do you think could have happened if you were more casual about that?

SPEAKER_00 38:30

What do I think could happen? So I I spoke a little bit earlier about my childhood. And um when I in the short time that we lived with my grandparents, there was some abuse that was happening. And I'm aware that little girls can be a little bit more helpless. They need guarding. I think our kids need guarding. And so I was intentional about where we would go and maybe who we would hang out with, and not everything is okay. Um, I think in this world, sometimes people we just want to smile and sort of feel awkward, but we don't want to be like, that's not okay. That is so not okay. And I am not gonna leave my girls here in this.

SPEAKER_03 39:21

Yeah, you're talking about uh um loose tongues and just things that should probably shouldn't aren't appropriate for for kids in those in those moments.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

Well, and you know, you don't know what else could be happening. Yeah, you just don't know. I mean, yeah. So I guarded my girls because I'm a little bit familiar with some of the other things that can happen in the world to little girls.

SPEAKER_03 39:48

And what about 10 years from then, 20 years from then, from um what some would call shielding, others would call healthy boundaries, then then the normalization of that in their lives on a regular basis? What do you think life for them could have looked like today if you hadn't done that? It's a because it's a br it's a brave thing to do. Well, no one else was doing it, right? It was weird, but the right thing to do. The hard thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

Well, you know, and just a couple of things. I know, Heather, you talked about this a little bit. Um I know that I was not invited to, you know, like neighborhood parties and things like that. But if I would be up visiting a daughter, Jerry was invited to the neighborhood party. So you'd see a picture on Facebook or something of him on the hay hay wagon or whatever, you'd be like, okay, I get it. You know, I I can still really be a lot of fun, even though I'm not drinking. But um, yeah, how my girls would be different. I I think we have raised um, many have raised their children to just turn a blind eye to things that are not okay. I'm not okay with that. But many raise their children, and so we grow up not calling evil evil. And that's so confusing. We, you know, we you guys know this too because this is more out there, but giving a child permission to say no, and then expecting others to listen, that wasn't a thing in my day. That wasn't even really a thing in my girls' day, but it was with me, with them. So empowering our kids to set boundaries, that's what I was trying to do by showing them that I needed to set boundaries even when it wasn't comfortable. But I wasn't like intentionally doing that, I was just doing what I thought was right. You know what I mean? And sometimes the blessings flow from that.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

Those who are left to party and you're leaving. Oh, there she goes. There she goes. Oh, mighty Kim. I it it's crazy how that that happens. Like that happens. I remember um I left family reunions in the same way. Yes, and I would notice, I would notice, and sometimes in this in the sense of, okay, good, no, I don't have to feel guilty anymore. Because I would be drinking. Right? Like there, it's kind of that don't have to hide it anymore. Yeah, I don't have to pretend that I'm drunk, like I can I can just be drunk, you know. Like, how terrible is that? But you were setting an example as hard as it was. I noticed, I noticed, and and others noticed. And um I at this point in my life too, being 43, I'm kind of like, I don't care what anybody says anymore. I want to walk a life that is pure as I can, even though we're all sinners. I still, it's like I want to be able to be that example, and I don't want my kids to ever see me scoot a cheek or say like turn my back on certain things, be like, oh, it wasn't okay yesterday, but it I want to be consistent, uh setting those boundaries, doing what is right for our kids and for my husband too, you know, like honoring Amos in moments that if he is uncomfortable with the situation, I may not, I may perfectly fine because it's just something I it's from my childhood. But if he's uncomfortable with what is happening for the safety of our kids, dang right, I'm gonna be on board with that because that's how you honor each other, right? In those moments. And so there's um there's a lot, I mean, you're a you're licensed marriage and family therapist. How often you see the fighting because one family is one way and one family is the other, and you tend to side with your family over your or your upbringing over your wife or over your husband.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

Did you see that? You know, um from a broken family, that's what I would consider my childhood. Um, Jerry's mom and dad, I grew to love them dearly. Okay, Vern, yes. I did. And they, you know, and especially Vern, um, I say as far as earthly daddies, he's called me you're like a daughter to me, and I'd be like, Vern, you're just like the best earthly dad I've ever had. And he is. Um, and so um I think at first when we were first married, I was really annoyed that we would go down to Kate and Vern's house every Sunday. We'd go to church, go to their house, be there all afternoon, have supper, and then go back to our home in Marshall. And it was so annoying. But then after a while, it was like comforting. And they still get together on Sunday nights for Sunday dinner at Vern's all these years. And um, so there's a lot of tradition that I didn't have growing up that I learned in the Sano family, and um, there's a lot to be thankful for, um, and a lot of grounding that it brought me. So I have to be thankful for that too.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Yeah, yes. We say that all the time about like every family has something, and the one thing that we have a lot of in the Santo family is love. Yes, the love that is poured out that's even with all the destruction and alcoholism and all the things, the love just is like it's palpable.

SPEAKER_03 45:35

It's they're inviting, welcoming, and they make you feel good, and they conversate and they treat you like adults, uh, even the kids, and there's a lot of really good, really positive things.

SPEAKER_01 45:46

There's just a demon of alcoholism. I mean, it it's a it's a spirit that is just it's it, I don't know, it's just hard. It's every family has it though, so it's like a I don't have to explain that piece of it. Um Jerry's legacy will forever be. He just he helped he helped so many people and loved on people, and um and now he's gone at age 60, and that was a two and a half, two years ago, yeah, a little over two years ago. What are you doing now, Kim?

SPEAKER_00 46:20

You know, um I am praying a lot. I just put one foot in front of the other. I didn't know what to do. It's like what am I gonna do? Am I gonna stay here? Am I gonna move to the cities to be closer to my daughters? And I just thought I I don't know what to do, so I'm just gonna keep doing what I've been doing. And um another thing about my childhood is that I moved eight times before I got married, so I didn't really have roots. Um, and then I realized probably about 10 years ago that I'd been in Marshall for a long, long time, longer than I'd been anywhere in my life. Wow, this is my home. And so when Jerry passed away, I thought, where else would I go? Yeah. I, you know, I've been doing life with people in Marshall and in Tracy for 38 years. I I don't know what else to do. So I just kept doing what I was doing. And um, I had to learn how to drive a mini tractor and move snow and lawns.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

You look dang cute doing it too when you have to add it there again. You're like, hey.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Well, you know, it's like you overcome some things, and then um that was the whole first year after he passed away. And the second year is like, okay, I'm done with this. Who's gonna come and help me now? Um, but the Lord has shown me that he has plans, and um, so I'm excited for what the Lord is going to do. I'm just really keeping my eyes on him and following him and doing what he says and reading the word, and that's what I'm doing. And you have your own private practice? Yes, I do, right here on the farm. I do. I was meeting um in a different place in Marshall, and that space no longer worked for me, and I didn't know what to do. Yeah, and again, I feel like the Lord was He He showed me to build a prayer room in my barn, and the way that it looks right now, today, is exactly the vision that God gave me. And so um I had um uh some really great help in building that, and I'm so thankful for who God brings alongside me to help me with various things. But um, and he's and the barn also is gonna be used eventually for women's retreats. So my heart is women's ministry, and um so that's what I'm going to be doing and writing a book.

SPEAKER_01 48:49

So as we pulled up, I looked over to the barn and I was like, oh shoot, someone forgot to put someone forgot to shut that light off. And who's gonna go do it in the snow? And Kim says, What as we walk in?

SPEAKER_00 49:03

The Lord told me to leave the light on in the prayer room, and so the light will be on.

SPEAKER_01 49:08

So that light will shine all the time and it shines out in this big beautiful red barn. Just like you would picture. We're gonna have to put a picture of the red barn. Do you have one of you and all the girls and Jerry, maybe where the barn's in the background? No, I don't. But I've got beautiful pictures of the barn. Okay, we're gonna we're gonna get it on there somehow. Because it's it's nostalgic for those who have never been to a farm and or seen a barn. Only in pictures, right? Um oh Amos has a question.

SPEAKER_03 49:39

Kim, how do you how did you uh we talked about this earlier? Discernment. You said God told you. Yes. How do you how do you know when it's your head and when it's the Lord? And then for you personally, how do you hear? Is it is it audible? Is it a thought? Is it a heart feeling? What does that look like for you?

SPEAKER_00 50:00

It is all of those. God is amazing. So I'm gonna tell you. Um, I wanted to hear the Lord, and I don't remember how many years ago this was, because man, when you get to be my age, you're just like, I can't remember how many years ago. But I I I sat there in my counseling office and I said, Okay, Lord, I want to hear you. This is exactly this is how I talk to the Lord. Because you remember back when I said, Yeah, you can be my daddy, but if you screw up, I'm out of here, right? I said, Okay, God, I want to, I want to hear you. I want to know that I know that this is you talking to me. So, God, I want you to cancel out every other voice, every demonic voice. I want you to cancel out my voice, and I'm gonna start writing down everything that comes into my mind. So if it's not you, that's your fault. It's exactly I do, I I just I'm just real with God. It's not like this, you know, like I'm just not that way. It's just like, okay, God, here's the deal.

SPEAKER_01 50:59

So down to earth.

SPEAKER_00 51:00

Yeah. And if I'm reading something in scripture, it's like, oh, I want to be more like Daniel. Oh, I want to be more like David. Can you make me more like Mary God? You know, it's just like I just see so much. So that so I started and and I just spent time listening. But there's a couple ways that you can know if it's God. First of all, if the thought, what you're hearing in your mind, um, it cannot go against the word of God. It has to line up with the word of God. It can't be, well, it lines up with this, but not this. There is nothing that God's gonna tell me that doesn't line up in the Bible. It's not gonna be discredited somewhere else in the Bible. Okay, that's number one. Can you give an example, Kim? Um, well, a real easy example would be, you know, um, your husband is unkind to you, and that man is nice to you, so you can go with that man. Okay. Yep. Sounds really sweet. God is so good, but you know what? There's scripture that speaks against that.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:04

Adultery. So that would not be a thought from God or a voice from God, a word from God. Who would it be from? Satan. Yes. Or demons. So, um, so it has to line up with the word of God. Um, it can also be me thinking that. If I'm thinking it and it lines up with the word of God, it's still okay. Right now, if I get a thought that doesn't line up with the word of God, or it's, you know, uh don't forgive or you know, do something mean to someone, say something that is uncalled for, um, then that's likely demonic, right? So I can think about what I'm thinking about, which is really what scripture says, right? Take your thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ. So I need to think about what I'm thinking about, and I need to weigh that. Um, so if I hear, um, well, and God uses different ways of speaking to people. I know somebody that God uses numbers to speak to her. I don't know how they do that, but that's them. God will speak to me and sort of um like like let me be your daddy. That was not audible, but it was definitely a booming thing that I can't even describe it. There's other times when I have a feeling in my soul that it's like I like I should not go in there, right? And you just know it. Physical.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

Like it's a physical feel it, yes, burning like a sensation or a thump. Yeah, I my heart starts to pound really hard, yeah, and I get hot.

SPEAKER_00 53:37

Yeah. Well, I've been listening for a long time, so it's like God can just say something, and I'm like, I'll be going in one direction, I'll turn around and go the other direction instantly because I want to be that obedient to him. So it's like becoming more and more sensitive takes time. You just practice it, you just keep listening.

SPEAKER_03 53:54

Um practice, yes, and then it doesn't it doesn't come natural to you. You you were you were intentional.

SPEAKER_00 54:00

I was in seeking out that, and he also speaks to me in pictures, like he'll show me a picture of something, so and then I I'm just obedient with that, like a picture of the prayer room. And it's like I told the people helping me build the prayer room this is what I want. And he just provided everything.

SPEAKER_03 54:22

That seems like that's could be the one of the harder ones to discern.

SPEAKER_00 54:27

A picture?

SPEAKER_03 54:28

Yeah. Because I just think uh pictures in my head all the time.

SPEAKER_01 54:38

And you see a big old beach and you're like, oh, he wants us to move.

SPEAKER_03 54:43

Yeah, I see flavor to beaches all the time.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

Well, that's the thing. Lord has gotta be you.

SPEAKER_03 54:48

Go out and scold outside.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

Right. It's not necessarily scriptural, but yeah, great. God, could you confirm that?

SPEAKER_01 54:56

I don't know how we will, but yeah. So the one thing I a big piece that I took from that is to ask. The thing that we don't do is is we don't ask. God wants to provide and give us our heart's desire as long as it aligns with him and our purpose.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

So so much of Scripture, Matthew 7, 7, ask and and it will be given unto you, right? Seek and you will find, knock, and I'll open the door. I mean, he just God is so inviting, and all we have to do is just say yes, Lord. And he teaches us, um, he guides us, he grows us. Isn't really any credit that any of us can take. So we just have to be willing.

SPEAKER_01 55:38

Good first step is to talk, pray, ask. Just start opening up your thoughts and your heart to the unknown of that.

SPEAKER_00 55:48

And and use language like we are right now. Yeah. Because God is that, right?

SPEAKER_01 55:53

It's relationship with God. It's my favorite time in the morning, is my my just alone time and just talking with him. And then I hear the little pitter patters coming and I brace myself.

SPEAKER_02 56:06

God locked the door.

SPEAKER_01 56:10

Okay, activate all fruits of the spirit. Yes. I need patience. Kind of gentleness, self-control.

SPEAKER_03 56:17

I have a I have a friend who's sought out the Lord, and he his um, you know, he's agnostic because his experience has been much different than yours. What do you say to a person who's struggling in that same way?

SPEAKER_00 56:34

I, you know, it isn't really up to us to convince somebody of who God is. It is up to God to do that. And so I don't know. I don't know what I would say, but I would just listen. And um, you know, if your friend would ask me a question, then I get to answer from my heart or my honesty. And, you know, I don't know. But what you can do is pray. And um, I know that God can do anything, but what he chooses to do is to use our voice, our prayers to activate the angel armies. And so to pray for him would be the best thing you can do. I'm not gonna try to convince anybody of anything, it's black and white if you just open a Bible.

SPEAKER_03 57:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

But what I can do is give my testimony because no one can discredit my testimony. It's you know, unless you can prove I'm lying, right? But a testimony is something that that um that you testify to. This is the truth as far as I can, I know it.

SPEAKER_01 57:39

Wow, Kim. I just sit here in awe of you. I do. You're just you're peaceful, you're honest, you're real, and I am just grateful that I get the opportunity to be in your life. Sweet. I do, and to now share you with the world is even makes me more excited. So thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your heart and telling the story and honoring Jerry's legacy and just all the goodness that came out of this.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

So well, and I'm thankful for everyone who prayed for us, who thought of us, who reached out to us because that makes it easier. I know it's hard to know what to say to someone who's going through a cancer journey or another journey that's hard. But do do your best, just be real. And sometimes it's just sitting or being silent or sending a note, whatever it is. But just everything just touched our heart. We felt so um loved through the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 58:41

We could feel that. I could feel that, even down to the last few moments of Jerry's life. Like it was, it truly was a ripple throughout our entire family. It was like, he's gone, he's gone, he's gone, he's gone. Like it just everybody felt it. Um, so thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.