SPEAKER_03 0:00

Here comes a sun do. Here comes a sunda say. It's all right.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Hello, fortitude audience. Thank you so much for coming back to join part two with Kira and with Brandy. So thank you for being here again. Thanks for having us. And Amos.

SPEAKER_03 0:30

Hello.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

I uh I'm really excited about this next conversation because as we continue with the podcast, a lot of underlining things that we have talked about with abuse and just with different circumstances that people have found themselves in. This personality tends to come to the forefront. And so I have experienced narcissistic uh personality just in different friendships. And I'm sure, in a sense, we all have a little bit of it in us, right? Sure. Um, but it is an actual disorder. So I would like to just jump right in, you guys, and have an open dialogue about this. Um, and again, Brandy and I have had many conversations going back into the things that we've experienced. And that's why I asked both of you to come because from two different points of view, from a child, essentially a child who experienced it in past relationships, and then also Brandy and I um in relationships as well. So it says here in the dictionary that narcissistic personality disorder is a mental health condition in which people have an unreasonably high sense of their own importance. They need to seek too much attention and want more people to admire them. People with this disorder may lack the ability to understand or care about the feelings of others. One piece of that uh is they seek out vulnerable and socially happy, energetic, loving butterflies. And that is interesting to me because when you have a disorder, like for an example, for myself, when I had alcoholic, I'm a redeemed alcoholic. So alcoholism, um, I didn't know until later on in life when it started to really get bad. But yet I did, right? So it's a weird contrast because it's like you know, but you but you don't want to admit it because you don't want to have to get help or have to do things differently because it's working for you in life, right? Like it's again the sweep it under the rug.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

And so this disorder rips people apart. It is abuse, it is not something that is going to be excused in my in my lifetime and in Amos's, and as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to living your life as Christ and for Christ, this kind of behavior is 100% unacceptable. It is abuse. And so let's get into a little bit of what it is for the victim. And we're not victims in any circumstance because we have spoken that experiencing this just makes us a better person, helps us with the boundaries, it helps us with a lot of stuff. Like I'm so grateful for the times that I did encounter it because now I know what to look for. So to educate our audiences, to uh just kind of get into the nuts and bolts of maybe some situations that you guys may have experienced in these different relationships, and then also um what you're doing today, just kind of just talk through a little bit from um from both of your standpoints. Do you want to go first or do you want me to go first?

SPEAKER_02 3:59

I'll let you go first. Okay. Yeah. So I have experienced this type of situation in past relationships. And what I can tell you is that it never starts directly in your face, right? It's a very slow process. They but they basically groom you and they bomb you with all this love, and they just show you all the wonderful things out there in the world, and you're just like you're like a magnet to it, right? It's like a magnet and you're just drawn to this. And then over time, these little things start happening. And because you're experienced this love bombing, when those negative experiences happen, whether, you know, they've yelled at you for something you haven't done, or you know, they there's some sort of chaos that they've created and you're trying to like navigate through it, or you have a situation where they're like, Well, that was all you, or I was just joking. Now you start to question, am I crazy? Is that how that just happened? I don't think that's how that happened, right? But then you the next day everything's fine and everything's roses, and you're like, that was me. And that's conditioning and that's grooming. So they they don't do it right, they're not punching you right in the face the first day, right? Uh, and figuratively I'm speaking here, but they slowly plant those seeds and they slowly condition you to now think everything is your fault.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

No matter how, no matter if it's this glaring red light beeping saying that was not you, that was not you, you still think it was you. It's like someone's like, the sky is purple, and you're like, Yeah, it's purple. You know it's blue, you can see it's blue, but they've told you that the sky is purple, right? And that's the key in this process is they do they start it slowly and they continue to plant that sleep seed slowly. And now I'm conditioned to now, okay, approach those situations. And now it's easier to manipulate me and it's easier to convince me that it's my fault, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:08

So, and while this is going on, there's people tapping you on the shoulder, most likely. Because this kind of be, I mean, it goes it it happens usually but when it's not around other people. And it was referenced to me through a lot, a lot of counseling and therapy is that the phrase that is often used is a wolf in sheep's clothing. You'll hear that in a lot of different uh contexts and content that's written out there and um all that. So when I think about a narcissist, it is a wolf in sheep's clothing. And so they can zip it on and off whenever they they're so good at it, that manipulation. And so we may not see it sitting in on this side of it. We're like, wait, what I'm so confused. But like the cartoon with the black and white eyes that are spinning, that's what that's us that or like when we're sitting in that seat. And so when someone taps us on the shoulder and goes, Hey, like you've changed who you are, you're acting different. We're like, what are you talking about? And then we start to defend the narcissist because the narcissist has us so warped in our brain that we're we make excuses, right? So did you find in in your guys' time that these excuses were coming or people were noticing or saying stuff to you, and you're like, wait, no.

SPEAKER_04 7:34

Yeah, for sure. I mean, there was even times in relationships that I've experienced where like maybe my mom will like ask me about it and like I'll get emotional and I'll be like, no, like you can't say that. Like I like that is just not true. Like, I'm doing that. No, like it this it was it was my fault. Like at the end of the day, it was my fault. And I think one thing we also explained with that is like it's a slow crazy. So I kind of refer to it as like the good and bad days. So it starts off with like a week of good, maybe one bad day. And then you get closer and farther on, and it's like half and half. So you got three good days, three bad days, but it's the bad days are in between the good days. So you start to think and you're like, what is going on with me? Why am I being like this? And then you get to like it's all bad. And I think that's where the light clicked for us, where we were like in those past relationships that it was like, okay, I think we know what we're dealing with here. And I think there's but then there's always that one day where you where you question yourself because it's one good day in a month of bad. Yeah. And you're like, Oh like this is how it used to be. Like it's it's fine now. It's fine. And you start to get the excuses. It's fine, like it's it's just a bad month.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

A glimmer of hope. Yeah, I call it like this glimmer of hope, or this you get the little teeny butterfly, and because you remember the beginning. Yeah. You remember what it was like, and you're like, oh, I just that that it's still there. There's still hope. I have I I have hope in this. But then it happens again. Yep. What is what do you think when you hear all this, Amos? Because have you ever experienced Yeah, I have.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

I've had someone tell me that um maybe we should make a doctor's appointment to have my head jacked because I'm clearly not remembering things the way that that other person did.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

This wasn't me, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

This was a while ago.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

And uh I relate. It made me really think. It made me head go, my head go, maybe maybe I should. I was fortunate enough that uh I was confident enough in myself to say, nope, that's a bunch of crap. That's not what's happening. And I was I I got out of that relationship pretty quickly. But then there's been times where I've been in situations where I'm feeling confident in my own stance on things. And I'm seeing things through my own lens. And I'm standing firm on my position and how I saw things. And um, I also have to keep in mind, am I just, you know, am I am I dipping a toe into that tendency? You know, I've had that self that self-consciousness of my of my own, especially if it's happened a couple times in a row. And when you were when you were drinking, that was a big part of it. Like, what's going on here? Am I dipping a toe into that personality traits? Is she dipping a toe into that? Just what this everything is so messy. I don't know what's going on, you know? And so uh for both sides, um, even for those who just maybe dealing with someone who's been through that in a relationship and they start they say that word, it can plant a seed in your own heart and you start to question yourself.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

Well, and I want to address something that Heather said earlier about outside influences trying to tell you, you know, we did have outside influences telling us, but you are defending them because they're telling you that that outside influences is out to get them, or they're, you know, they just don't like them, or and you're so caught up in your own reality that you will now alienate the people that who love you and who are trying to speak truth into you and trying to speak love into you. And that's exactly what they want. They're trying to drive that wedge between the people who see it so that you could they can eliminate that truth into your, you know, when when they're speaking into your heart, you're just like, that's not who he is. Like, that's not who she is, right? And you just start alienating people who see it. And there are a lot of people or some people that I know that have said, I saw that from the get-go. Yeah. And I'm like, how did you see that?

unknown 12:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

But they weren't living with the same things that I was living with or that Kira was living with, right? Like, or experiencing they were outside seeing these little things happen, going, Whoa, that's a red flag. And I'm getting, you know, this like little bit of manipulation to what actually happened. And then now I'm questioning and I'm like, that's not really what happened. It was probably just me, or no, it was just we got a lot of stress, you know. I mean, again, the excuses, those babies, you got a basket full of those babies, and you're just throwing those out like you know, like nothing.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

But in our our culture, it's where relationships are so quick to cohabitate and join things together. And it's it's only when I mean it puts you in a position where it's harder to get out and harder to say no, right? Correct. And um if you were roll back culture of 20 years, that doesn't happen. And it's easier to say no because you haven't made those commitments. And so my my encouragement to our listeners is to put that off. I mean, really, you've gotta know someone before you know we make that big a commitment. And the heart will lie to you. It's a heart is very, a very noisy thing, isn't it? It'll make you think everything is okay. And hopefully and hopefully it is. But the heart is different than the mind, it just thinks differently about the future.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

It does. It uh I if I think if I go back to, I mean, it was there's some things in high school, there's some things college, like all my times in my life, I had people like this and in and I wasn't confident enough or had enough no, I didn't know different, I guess. And so I allowed people to manipulate me. I didn't have good boundaries. I was a people pleaser, and this personality actually seeks that out. And so the people that knew me the best love me the most, which is usually parents or and some people have parents that have that are have this personality too. So you have to find someone. If if if you're going through this or some of this is registering, and you're like, whoa, I think this is what I have been going through, there there is someone in your life that will that will speak truth to you. This is this is a thing. There are those people. I had many of them. And when they spoke the truth, it were it was people that were in my life before this other person. Correct. And so when they when they look at you and they say, This is going on, how listen, listen to them. I can't say that loudly enough that we need to listen to them. They are not out for anything other than our own interest and because they love us. These people are so this personality is so scary. And the gaslighting, so that that phrase is thrown around a lot now. And so I want to read this definition too, because this is what was this is what happens.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Good. Let's all get a consensus of what gaslighting actually means. I love this.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Because Ingame was not talking about, he's like, that's an actual thing, like a definition. I said, Yeah, it's an unfortunate, it has to be a definition now, right? So it says gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse in which a person or group causes someone to question their own sanity, memories, or perception of reality. People who experience gaslighting may feel confused, anxious, or as though they cannot trust themselves, you guys. That is blows my mind how often that happens. Um, I've I think I've done it back in my my drinking time with Amos, I know I did because we are manipulating, trying to make other people feel crazy so they don't pay attention to us in our in our sickness. And so when it says, like, it's which a person causes someone to question their own sanity and perception of reality. I mean, that's like that's like far off sci-fi stuff to me, which my husband really likes sci-fi and I move. But I like how how okay. But I think about that, I'm like, whoa, nobody should ever have the right to ever like that. That happened to you guys. It happens to a lot, it's happening to a lot of people in our world.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

It is, and I think I mean, I want to address something you said earlier about listen to the people that are speaking into you because I think what I missed, I was so busy defending and getting angry and like, why can't you just support this? What is wrong with you? If you were my friend, you would support this, right? Manipulating them back. And I think if you, even if you're angry at that person for speaking their truth into you, I think you need to take time to say, what specifically are you seeing? What specifically are you concerned about? Because oftentimes we meet them with that anger because we don't want to admit it to ourselves either, right? We we know something might be off, but we don't want to admit it to ourselves either. And then we're just gonna gaslight and put it back on them saying you're not supportive or you're just trying to sabotage my relationships and you're in a deep a defensive posture. 100% defensive. That is the perfect word.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

But that's and which is normal for your state.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

Absolutely. Because you want to love this person. You you you made the decision, absolutely, to be their friend, be their wife, be their husband, be whatever it is that you are in with that person, and you're and you want to believe all the love and all the truth and all the things, the reasons that you actually fell in love with this person. Because if they did it once, that behavior is still there. I know it's still there, and I'll search for it and I'll look for it. And therefore, when somebody from the outside has seen only the the just kind of ick and watched it from the very beginning, they're not gonna have that, that state of still searching for the good in that person. And so now all they're concerned about is you as a human and you being in this abusive relationship. And I've had people come to me, you guys, that have said, help me help my daughter, help me help my uh son, or help me help my aunt, my sister. It didn't matter. It's like I've had multiple people come to me and say, I don't know how to get through to them. So how, like what what you just said is a great way to start the clearing of the fog of the false perceptions and the false reality of what's really going on, right? To ask those specific questions. What are you seeing? Yep. If you're gonna confront someone who's in a state of true delusion, is that the right word? Like a state of just I I'm not believing anything anyone wants to wants to say to me, what do we what what would you suggest?

SPEAKER_04 19:12

Um I don't it's hard because when you are in that situation, it's hard to listen to that. And it's so like if I put myself on the other side of it and like how would I get through to me or how would I get through to my mom? The only thing that like is number one is love and support. Because if you are endlessly loving and supporting this person, then it's hard for them to justify, well, they're out to get me. No, like they're just trying to love and support you. So I think that's like definitely number one, and I'm sure you'll have more to like definitely like do, but like I would say for me, like the biggest thing was just having that love and support and like from other people who are like, I don't think you're crazy, yeah. And you might feel crazy, you might feel confused, but I don't think you are, and I love you no matter what, no matter what happens, no matter how you feel about me, I love you, and I think that's definitely hard to come to terms with. I don't like on the other side, like justifying both sides almost, you know?

SPEAKER_02 20:27

Yeah, and I think when you talked about gaslighting, the person you're trying to reach, the delusional one, right? That you're trying to reach has been told so many times that they're wrong. They're questioning their own confidence and reality, right? And I truly believe that it takes a lot of courage to tell someone the truth when they don't want to hear it or when they're not ready to hear it. And Kira hit the nail on the head. I mean, we've been lucky that the people that are speaking into us have never once wavered on loving and supporting us. Even if you choose to stay, I still love you and I still support you, and I'll still be here when you call me and you're complaining or you're frustrated, or but I'm still gonna speak that truth into you, and I'm still going to, and sometimes it's saying, I can't help you this time. You're gonna have to figure this out. I've tried to tell you you're not ready to hear it, but I love you and I'll be here no matter what when you are ready to face it. And we've been extremely lucky to have that. But it does take a lot of courage for someone to speak that truth into you. And I think that's why I said, if I could, and again, we learn from our mistakes, and I I feel like we've come out of this way better. And I've, you know, I think we both have done work in therapy and reading and trying to understand what our tendencies are, the lack of boundaries. The trying to please everyone, right? I think we've done work in trying to heal that. And, you know, again, we've just been so lucky to have people that have had the courage to say, I think something's wrong. And I think when that happens, you have to give that time and space.

SPEAKER_04 22:18

And I think it's also hard because I think we're both fixers. So we see a situation that may be negative and we're like, oh, let's fix it. Let's fix it. Like, so it's it's hard to get through to someone who also is like that because when you're the happy bubbly and you see something that's not happy and bubbly, you're like, oh, I can fix it. It's it's fine. It's fine. I know you think this is bad right now, but I'm going to fix it. Yeah. So you have to almost be ready to risk. Like, you might lose that person for a little bit, but they're gonna come in the clear. And it's a hard thing to face because you're like, what well, if they lose me, they're they're gonna be really deep into this situation. And it's like sometimes you need that little push where it's like then you put yourself on the other side who is experiencing narcissist the narcissistic abuse, and you're like, okay, I don't want to lose this person who is truly trying to support me, and then the fog starts to clear, and you see it, and you're like, wow. Like, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

How long does that fog last in your experience?

SPEAKER_04 23:25

A while. I mean, I think there's even some times where today I'll think back to a situation in a relationship, and I'm like, was I in the wrong? And I start to fog again, and then I'm like, okay, take a deep breath. You're not wrong. You're you're not crazy. And I mean, I've gone to therapy, so like I have talked through it, but there's I mean, there's still sometimes years after where you think about it, but you started to heal, so you know, like the fog's gonna clear.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

You have the facts now from therapy and all the things you're like, no, I know better.

SPEAKER_04 24:11

Well, and I think something too is like after we experienced relationships and stuff, we turned to Christ. And before that, it was unclear because it was like, I have nothing. And then the fog starts to clear, and you find him, and you're like, Wow, my path is laid out, I have nothing to worry about. This was stressing me out, and I was so confused, and I'm just not anymore.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

I I she just literally pulled the thought out of my head. I was literally just gonna say part of the problem is Christ was not at my center during that entire time. And I spent a lot of time being angry at him. Yep, and that's it's hard. And I think when you put him back at your center and you seek him, that is the key to coming out of that fog. It truly is. And I cannot stress it enough. I I'm not surprised she brought that up. She's amazing, of course. Um, she's yours. That's what I'm gonna say. Get it from the case. Um, but that is a key that we have found in our healing and in understanding ourselves and doing the work to heal and having him, keeping him always at the center. When there's a problem, when there's not a problem, thanking him, you know, the gratitude. That to me is where the healing begins. Yeah, and he will walk with you and he will show you the way, and you have to do the work. And we still run into situations where I know I have been conditioned to defend what isn't true, to apologize for something I've not done wrong, right? I still have those tendencies, and that's gonna be something that I think that we work on for a while. And, you know, again, praying about it and keeping that relationship with God, I cannot stress that enough because that has been the key to our our where we are today and making us whole.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Yeah. Because like like your question just now, Amos, about um the fog. That's the clearing. Anytime you go back to who they they said you were, you go back to who he says you are. Oh, yes. And that is something that's so beautiful about the truth and about God's word and our purpose and who we have been made to be in his image. And you're like, thank you, Lord. Like, just there's a there's this just soften of the heart where you're you can go, all of that, all of that makes us, and again, it helps you to know what to look out for going forward, right? Like that, I'm Kira, you're just set up for just straight success in so many different ways when it comes to that, because you'll you'll have boundaries, you'll have things that you'll be like, nope, nice try, but yep, bye. Been there, done that, and go on, right? I want to speak to isolation. Uh, that was a piece that I'm finding um more and more the people that are asking me for help. They will say, I can't get to, I can't get to her, I can't get to him because this other person has them so isolated. And in the isolation, that is when they program you. That is when they speak to you for hours and hours. So to watch out for that. What would be your advice in that? Because that's a scary, that's that's the scary place because they threaten you in that isolation. If you say, if you do, this will happen. If our children, people are threatened on their like grandmas and grandpas don't get to see their grandbabies because grandma and grandpa are bad and they're not, right? So, like all these all these words and all this stuff is happening behind the scenes, right? Mm-hmm. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

Do you want to speak to it first or do you want me to?

SPEAKER_04 28:25

I mean, I'll probably be short. I think the isolation part is like you don't notice it until you're like, I wish I could do this. I think for me as a kid, it's kind of like the FOMO, fear of missing out. So like I would start to get it, and then you'd be like, Oh, I can't do this. Like, I'm silly. Why would I think I could do that? Yeah. And it's like something every kid does. So I think for me, once I started kind of pushing back, it was like, oh, I can do it. I don't care. I'm gonna do it. Yeah, like this is normal for me. This is normal for me to experience.

unknown 29:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:03

Well, and I think she's talking a lot about, you know, they try to isolate you from people, relationships, friendships, it doesn't matter. They really do. And that's really hard because you get to a point, and I've been there where I thought I had no one. I have wrecked every relationship because the cost of having that relationship was too much. If I had, if I wanted to go hang out with my friends, if I wanted to go spend time with, you know, whoever, the cost of it was so high that I avoided it. Correct. And I thought, I have wrecked every relationship. But what you don't know, and I'm gonna go back to God here, is that he's got this army of people waiting for you. And until you're at your lowest, you don't figure out, you can't figure that out. And so I think if you are a in isolation, I want you to know that there are people out there that will help you, who are ready to help you and are waiting to help you.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

So, so important if you're in isolation. If you're dealing with someone who's kind of isolated themselves from you, my advice, and I was lucky enough that I had that person in my life who never stopped trying. Yeah. I'm not gonna stop calling you. I'm not gonna stop inserting myself into your life. Absolutely not. And I was so fortunate that I had those people in my life that never gave up. And so I think again, speaking to the people that are experiencing that, like, oh my gosh, what do I do? Find a way. I just again, we were just so lucky that we had, and then, you know, when it finally hits the fan, we were like, What are we gonna do? I was like, I have nothing figured out, I don't know what I'm gonna do. You know, when you're just kind of sitting and you feel like you're at your lowest, all of a sudden I looked around, I'm like, huh, all of these people. And that is not by accident. Yeah, that is God right there. And we had people coming out and supporting us who I would never have guessed. Was like, you can be, I can provide this, I'll help you with this. And I was just like, I had no idea that person even existed in my realm, right? Because I had eroded all my relationships. And so again, I would just encourage those that are experiencing that and on the outside of it to not just find a way. Yeah, never stop. Always be there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Have you been on the outside looking in in a situation where you're trying to speak into someone's life and they and they shut you down?

SPEAKER_02 31:43

I don't know that I personally have.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

I don't know about you. Um friendships.

SPEAKER_04 31:50

I mean, maybe, but I don't I don't really know.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

I think a friend that actually was dealing with a boyfriend who was super controlling and actually ruined their friendship for a while.

SPEAKER_04 32:05

So okay, now that you say that, that's that's funny because I I was thinking about that and then I was like, eh, I don't know. But yeah, definitely. I had a friend and or have, and her boyfriend was controlling everything, and I was always there just kind of having fun, doing whatever, like, hey, let's let's all go do this. And then he would be like, No, you're not doing that. And I'd be like, hey, come on, like, let's go, guys. Like, it's like what? Like, why wouldn't we go do this? Like, and it was like a slow start, and then I would like I would call my friend, I'd be like, Hey, like, is everything good? Haven't talked to you in a while. Oh, yeah, like I I can't talk that long.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:48

And it's like, shoot.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

That's too young. Yep. It's too young to allow. That's why boyfriend, girlfriends, we've talked about that. Like, just be friends. Don't have a boyfriend or girlfriend in high school, especially. Like, just be friends. Um, you were gonna say something else about that.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Well, I I think you can you can empathize with that and you'll recognize her right away.

SPEAKER_04 33:07

Yeah, I definitely did, and I talked to her about it, and I was just like, girl, you deserve better.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

So, what what worked and what didn't work?

SPEAKER_04 33:16

Um what didn't work was trying to like I think telling her right away, like, you gotta you gotta do something about this. You know, like I think that puts the pressure on her, and then she's like, why would I have to do anything about this? Like, I love this guy, like, why would I do anything? What did work was constantly being there, continuing the phone calls because I I work with her, so I'd see her at work and I'd be like, Hey, how are you doing? Not asking anything else about any outside factors, just hey, how are you doing? I genuine feeling of she knows that I care. And then when all of that hit the fan and they broke up, which she ended up breaking up with him, which was um like amazing for her, and I think it really helped her heal, but she came to me and she was like, I'm sorry. I'm like, you don't have to be sorry because it's hard to identify something like that, and it's hard to deal with it. And especially so young, you don't think it's gonna hit you that young in a relationship, especially. And then it does, and you're like, ooh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

You talked about this in sports too. The positive and negative reinforcement, how how the negative is counterproductive. I'm hearing the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 34:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

Positive reinforcement, let them know you're there. The negative stuff has a reaction. It's not always positive, not always positive. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

And you can't make it personal. That's the other piece. Like not making it personal, just making it more about the facts. Like, I don't I don't think he has a right to tell you what you can and you can't do, because in this situation, XYZ or she should not be doing this to you because um you have rights to yourself and your decisions. Like when Amos and I very uh first started dating, I remember asking permission for things that he was like, um sure. I don't know you need to ask me. And I was like, oh wow. Again, the conditioning, right? Like you, you cannot do this, or not home or not somewhere at exactly the time you say you're that you're supposed to be, and just you know, it's like so time for me, time the aftermath of that is a big piece for me. Um, watching the clock, because I feel like I was always watching the clock. So if they're after you about your time, your like this, it's almost like a suffocation. Um, that's another really big warning, is the is that you're under that control of nobody should ever be under the control of another human being.

SPEAKER_04 35:56

Ever. I think ours was the phone. You have to have your phone on 24-7. You have to answer your phone right away, you have to text back right away, and at all times you need to be texting me what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

Yes, that is a consistent thing for all narcissists. It is. I that is I I I never want to generalize, but you're on my schedule. Yep. Yep. And I am first priority.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

It sounds, it sounds like my heart's going out to that person who's on the other end of that, who's creating this. What a what's that just sounds like an awful way to feel and live and just in fear all the time. You are and feeling like you need to control things.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

He's speaking about the narcissist. Yeah, and I yeah, I love when you talked about asking for permission because when you're having to ask for permission to go get gas or go to the grocery store, or buy an extra loaf of bread, or buy a shirt. Yeah, that is a huge sign that I think you need to do some self-reflection and you need to reflect on what's happening to you because everything does have a time limit. And you know, you could be in the grocery you're gonna go grocery shopping, you're going by yourself by some miracle. You get to go to the grocery store by yourself, but you better believe that if they think you should have shopped in 30 minutes, you better be home in 30 minutes, or you're getting a call, or you're getting some sort of questioning. And so that is a very, I'm so glad you brought that up, Heather, because if you're experiencing something like that, that is a huge red flag of this personality disorder, and I urge you to self-reflect, ask somebody for help because that is not normal. And, you know, when you get into different relationships, healthier relationships, you're just and you're like, I don't have to tell you, and you're not upset when I at the last minute had to run and meet a friend of mine. You know what I mean? And I think that's key. That's a healthy relationship where it's like, okay, you have autonomous.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Absolutely.

unknown 38:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

And healthy relationships, man, that's a whole nother thing. That's a beautiful thing to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

What um you b you both said you're fixtures.

SPEAKER_03 38:20

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

So what are the chances that someone can fix a narcissist? What are the if if that's your go-to, I think I can fix this.

SPEAKER_04 38:29

I can sort of I don't think it's someone fixing another person. Like, I don't think at any point one person who's in a relationship could fix a narcissist. I think it's 1000% like you can have help for sure, but I think it's it's going to be in the narcissistic like the narcissist him him or herself to take it upon themselves and be like, wow, I've done some serious damage here, and I I have and relate to this like this disorder, and I think I truly need help. And being there for them, I think that that can help, but I don't think one person could be like, hey, this is you, like you need help. Like that turn it back on you.

SPEAKER_02 39:20

Nope. But I also think, too, like there's a couple of things, and I don't ever want to never say never. Do I think everyone is redeemable and everyone can be helped? And that God can use every one of us for 100%. I think there's a couple things of how you can help someone who has that tendency is by setting boundaries. They do not like boundaries. And it's interesting because we use boundaries to protect ourselves and our, you know. And I think although it's unit's not the norm with a narcissist, using boundaries is sometimes showing that you love them. I'm setting a boundary with my time and helping them understand that that boundary exists and that they cannot cross that boundary.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

Again, it That's such a healthy thing because you're not trying to, you're not putting energy into fixing someone.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

Nope.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

That's not your role anyway in a relationship. You are working on yourself and trying to improve yourself.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

Where do you learn about boundaries? It's not written on billboards.

SPEAKER_02 40:25

Nope.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

It doesn't come up in your when you pull up YouTube, it's not the first couple of videos, is it? Where do you learn about boundaries?

SPEAKER_02 40:32

Well, you know, I think where we've learned about it is in therapy. Because when you when you are outside of a relationship, especially a narcissistic relationship, I would urge you to get help and do some, do the work. And that's where you learn about boundaries specifically. Um, that's where I know I did. Where it's like, why is it your response? Why do you think it's your responsibility for A or B? And I really had to think about that. And I think for me, what I've learned out of this is what drove me to be attracted to that type of personality? What are the things I can do to help myself avoid this in the future? Same. And again, Google it, research it. I don't care what you have to do, but boundaries. I think even if you're not in a relationship that's narcissistic, I think it's good to have good boundaries at work, good boundaries with your, you know, family, you know, with your like in all relationships, I think it's very, very important to have boundaries. And, you know, we just simple relationships, sibling relationships. It's like, okay, I want you to get involved in my fight with her. And it's like, that is not my responsibility. When before you talked about being a fixer, I'd be like, okay, I'm gonna try and fix your relationship. And I'm like getting involved and like I'm putting all that drama on myself. And I'm like, not my dishes, not my sink. And it's really hard to get to that point because you want to fix it and you want everyone to be happy. And it's like, it is not my responsibility to fix your relationship with her. It is your both of your responsibilities. And unless you're willing to do that, I can't help you. Don't come to me with your problem with her. I'm sorry, that's not for me to. If you have a problem with me, I'm happy to address that, but I'm not gonna address your problems with somebody else.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

So counseling, you said counseling.

SPEAKER_02 42:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

So um talk speak to the person who uh heard what you said earlier and relates and says, Well, I can't, I can't go to the store. I'm tracked all the time. Speak to that person. And what would be your advice?

SPEAKER_02 42:46

Ooh, I would say, well, let me talk a little bit about why it's so hard. What I still struggle with is trying to defend my position all the time, right? Trying to defend whatever it is. It doesn't matter if it's at work, whatever. Because you never get validation as a person. And so, again, when you're in this relationship, you're told you're crazy, you know, your your version of reality didn't happen. I was just joking, right? And so you're constantly questioning and you never get someone that's like, Will you please just hear me? Will you please just believe me? This is happening. I don't know what to do. But I would encourage if someone, you know, that what you just specifically asked me is seek the people that have spoken truth into you and speak to, you know, seek help from your friends who are there for you and just say, This is what I'm experiencing. Will you help me?

SPEAKER_01 43:43

What if they have nobody though? Because they have like what you're talking about hundred percent isolation. Oh, if they have nobody like nine uh two one one. There um, there's another one, eight one one, or there's numbers out there that people can that you can call.

SPEAKER_04 43:59

Um I think another way is like which we obviously go to a church where it is an open conversation and you can go to there. Um, and I mean, even if you're isolated from that, just trying to find a little time where you can seek someone like that that isn't gonna judge you, isn't going to go behind your back and go tell someone else, yeah, and just be like, I really need help. I don't know where to look to. I genuinely don't have anybody. Yeah, and I mean, someone will help you.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

Is it fair to say that the process is gonna be painful?

SPEAKER_04 44:37

Yes. You are gonna go down way faster than you're gonna go up. You're gonna you're gonna think you're at rock bottom until you get out, and then you really hit rock bottom and you're like, this sucks. And then you're gonna slowly. But why does it suck?

SPEAKER_01 44:53

Tell me, like, tell me more about that because you think you're at rock bottom, and then you get the courage to get out of this relationship, and then you go.

SPEAKER_04 45:04

I think rock bottom for me was having to sort through my emotions.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

Okay, so the the healing. Yes. Okay, that's what I wanted you to hear.

SPEAKER_04 45:14

Um you get so used to this, like like schedule and plan, and I'm gonna try to fix this person, and the ups and downs. You get so used to that, then once all of that is kind of there's no more ups and downs, there's no more drama being created, you're like, what's happening? Like, why am I stuck with my thoughts? Like, why is all this like what am I dealing with? Like, was this true, or did I just blow this relationship up because I don't know what I'm talking about? And you get really low and you really doubt yourself. And again, finding Christ, that's when you're gonna start going up. But I think that's something I didn't understand at the time. And I was just, I continued to be low. I continued to lash out at people I cared about. I, you know, I was in sports, I was at school, so I would lash out and then I'd be like, why did I do that?

unknown 46:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

Because you were creating what you were used to. Yep. Chaos. Kira, that is so wise and so beautiful what you just said. Great question. Because that is what people need to know. Yeah. That is that is really just a um as soon as you you guys take that first step, you might step on hot coals.

SPEAKER_00 46:29

But then the other end of that is warm sand.

SPEAKER_02 46:33

Well, and I think people will reject you, people will judge you. Yep. You know, I I think there are people probably going through something right now where they're like, I don't have any money, I don't have anywhere to go, I don't have anywhere to live. I would tell Kira this all the time, and she's gonna probably roll her eyes when I say it. Everything is figure outable.

SPEAKER_01 46:50

It is. Even words that don't make sense. And sometimes it is a big word. I love it too.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

And I feel like for me, you know, I experienced that same thing, but now I have like, oh my gosh, I gotta figure out this and I gotta figure out that. And I've just made have I made things worse for myself because the easy path sometimes is staying in the bad situation. And the harder path is choosing not to be in that unhealthy situation. And that's sometimes harder. And I think that's exactly I I don't know that I'd change anything you just said about keeping Christ at your center, reaching out for help, finding a way.

SPEAKER_00 47:31

Yeah. I have one last question. How do you keep Christ at your center? How do you keep a top of mind? How's that how's that work for you?

SPEAKER_02 47:40

It's something that I have to do daily. Uh, it's something that I have, it's like any other habit to me. Um, I was so out of the habit. And, you know, I did I was I going to church? I sure was. Yeah. But I was not seeking a relationship with Christ there. And I think that was the key for me or the turning point for me that I seek him every day. I seek him when I'm happy and I thank him. I seek him when I'm stressed and I ask for help or guidance. I'm not expecting him to fix all my problems, but I do know he'll be there no matter what path I choose. He already knows the end. So I have to trust him that right now might be really darn hard. Yeah, but I know you are right next to me. And so it doesn't matter what I'm gonna go through, you are gonna be there. And I think that was the key. And I have to do it daily. I have to thank him daily. I have to read scripture daily to be thankful for where I am and this amazing human next to me. Jeez. Thanks. I'm just gonna come on the other side of her. I know. And so, you know, again, for me, it's just like any other habit, it's building that habit. And that's how I do it. Um, it's just daily.

SPEAKER_04 49:03

God, I can't even look at you.

SPEAKER_01 49:05

She's got me crying too, Kieran. You're spot on. There's no other way to do life.

SPEAKER_04 49:12

The good and the bad. I mean, I think a lot of people are like, well, only turn to him when it's bad. But then it's like, you're gonna get real bad, and then you're gonna turn and you're gonna be lost.

unknown 49:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:23

It has to be the good and the bad, and like like you said, understanding no matter what, through the good, through the bad, through the tough, and to be right next to us.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

And be grateful through it all. Is that that's really hard for a lot of people is because they get they get really angry and really upset when things are bad. Yeah. But in those moments are real bad, I found myself even more so now going, I don't get it, but I'm so grateful for this. This is hard. Amos and I have a lot of hard moments, and I'm I'm grateful for him.

SPEAKER_02 49:52

It's asking, like, I I think the thing that I used to miss too is like, what is he trying to teach me always now? What is in in leaving space for that? I have no idea what I'm gonna do. That's things are really hard. And I I think again, just trusting that he is there and that he is no matter if it's a you know, if it's a bad situation, there's something you can learn from that. There's something he is trying to teach you from that.

SPEAKER_03 50:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:24

And just never losing sight of that. I think the minute you le lose sight of him, things start to just naturally fall away.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

And there's always people to walk you through. I'll get that a lot. People say, I I don't know how to get my relationship back with Christ. I have fallen so short, I can't give myself grace. I put this mess in front of me, and now I just feel this guilt and this shame that I can't get past that to get this relationship back with Christ. How? And I can just say, Man, just start talking to him. Get in the word, start talking to him, find someone that is that you love, that has always spoken to your life again. Surround yourself with those type of people at church, just walk into the front doors of a church. Somebody will be there to to greet you.

SPEAKER_04 51:10

I think that's something that we've definitely like seen. Like we've met, it's this person might not be in your life now, but they will be because there's a plan. Yeah. And this person will make themselves prevalent to you. And you'll find them and you'll be like, wow.

SPEAKER_00 51:30

That's so true. It's rare that Christ makes you walk through a desert all by yourself. And it's just the two of you. It's he always brings someone into your into your life to speak in your life. That's so true. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

In the exact moment you need it. Yeah. I always pay attention to that now. I'm like, who you got, God? And he shows us. Yeah. Well, this is the this is just the beginning of the conversation. And I'm grateful to have the opportunity to speak to both of you about it from, like I said, both different perspectives of someone who's young and someone that's my age and still young. And I was like, where's she going?

SPEAKER_02 52:07

Yeah, still you very eloquently navigated through that.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

I think we're just like a few months apart, so we're good. Um, any last things that anyone wants to say?

SPEAKER_02 52:18

Yeah, I just thank you, first of all, for giving this a voice. And it's easy to be intimidated and it's easy to let the double in. And there are gonna be people who will be negative about but if this helps one person, that's all it's about. That is all we care about. And if it helps more, great. Uh that's again, just wanted to thank you for your for allowing us to have a voice and tell our story.

SPEAKER_00 52:53

Thank you for your courage, for your transparency, for being vulnerable. Oh, I was gonna be the last person to tear up, but here I here I am. Um no, but I guarantee this is gonna change, change lives. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

And if you are listening to this and you really do not know where to turn, you know that you can turn to us and we will help you find find your way.

SPEAKER_04 53:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:18

So thank you, everyone.

SPEAKER_04 53:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:20

Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_04 53:21

Thank you.