SPEAKER_03 0:00

Here comes the sun do. Here comes the sun that says, It's all right.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Hello, fortitude audience. This is Heather, your host, and I am sitting here with my husband Amos.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Hello.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

And my second cousin Kim Sano. Hello. Uh, we are sitting, for those of you who listened to part one, you are aware of this already, but it is morning now, and we are sitting back at the kitchen table. That is grandma's, Kim's grandma. So the squeaky chairs, the squeaky floors, and an old farmhouse in southwestern Minnesota. We just got done having bacon and eggs. The eggs were actually fried in the bacon grease. Is there another way?

SPEAKER_01 0:58

I had to restart your heart twice.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

So delicious. Thank you, Kim, for breakfast. It was so good. Um, we got to watch the sunrise over the red barn. And um, there's no better way. Warm, yummy coffee. So this has been a treat to come and speak to Kim and to just fellowship with you last night and this morning has been a it's been a blessing.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

So it's been a blessing for me to have you. I love having company.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Come often. Oh, for those of us who are listening, we will not give the address, just in case. Um, but this would be an experience for those who have never been to a farm. How fun if you had guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Well, there is a um a vision, uh a plan that's a little bit in the future to open up this farm. It's it's dedicated to the Lord. It's yours, Lord. You use it how you want. Um, and my vision is to invite families for a weekend stay or a week. I I that's still in the details are not um secured yet, but it would be a weekend of um solitude in a sense where there's no phones, there's no internet, there's no movies. It is just get to know your family again. Let's play some board games. I'm gonna be doing some ministry, and so that's been something that's actually been on my heart for about 20 years. And so um, with some of the buildings that are on site, they will be renovated for families.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

That'll be beautiful. There's there's a couple places outside of Sioux Falls. Um, there's a uh retreat center that is on someone's farm, and it's for families that are bereaved. Is that the right word? They've lost a loved one, and so they go there for healing. It's a full ministry. It's a be they're gonna be on the podcast eventually, but this is really for family reconciliation.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Just be together, enjoy each other, find out about each other, see each other.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

We do see some strange detox. Maybe side effects, maybe from cell phone and internet withdrawals, yes, from parents and the children.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Parents are addicted to their phones too, yes, they are, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

So that's a really good place to start. We're gonna be talking about generational trauma, and it stems from so many different areas, and I have been interested in talking with you just on a personal level because of my trauma and the things that I went through. Um, such a loving home. Like I have we had a great upbringing. Um, and yet the alcoholism and just what I entered into as an adult, I didn't know. I didn't understand. I didn't I never remember having conversations growing up about um what to look out for, what I should be careful of um with alcoholism. And you better dang well believe that that is gonna be something that I am so open and honest with my kids about because it almost killed their mama. You know, like I don't and we don't want to pass on this generational trauma, and we're doing everything that we can to read about it, pray about it, we dig into God's word, we um want to educate others because I I really have a heart for, and God has placed this on my heart big time of we have got to start getting over the excuses and the victim mentality of well, I was sexually molested when I was a kid, so I'm just who the this is just who I am, and I'm I'm angry, and I'm just gonna live the rest of my life angry, and then the kids, their kids, and then their kids, and it just keeps going and going and going. And so, Kim, I I want, since you are a licensed marriage and family therapist, like you have so much knowledge, and you've gone from part one. If you've not listened to it, folks, go back to part one and listen to Kim's story because your trauma as a kid, never do I hear you ever blame or ever make excuses. It's like you that forgiveness piece and all the stuff, like just speak to like your personal place of what you went through to where you're at today, and what not like go back through the story, but just speak to the trauma versus today.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Okay. Well, I'm gonna take a biblical approach because I believe that the word of God, um, the Bible, scripture has all of our answers. Yes, it does. And I, you know, there's so many people who be like, Well, I open up the Bible to read it and I don't understand it. And I please don't just read it to read it. Pray and ask God to give you understanding. And He loves us so much, He wants us to have understanding. He's going to give it. Um, but have a mentor. I remember when I started my Christian journey, I am so thankful for Rita. And I don't even know where Rita is right now, but I was privileged to sit with her and ask questions in my early 20s. I don't understand, I don't understand, I don't understand. She said, There's no dumb question.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

And I just kept on asking and I kept on seeking for the last 40 years. I've been seeking and finding. So God is good. Um, what I in counseling, so there are counselors that are Christians. I'm a Bible-based Christian counselor. If people come to me and they come to me for this purpose, we're gonna look at your issues, the things that are bothering you, the things that are hurting you through scripture. We're gonna find the answers. And and I'm thankful to God for leading me in doing that with so many wonderful people. But the first thing after salvation, when you are looking for healing, is looking at your problem, your trauma, the things that hurt you, and then forgiving. And that's that's kind of right there, is where a lot of people stop. They're like, I don't know how I can forgive because it's so painful. You can't heal unless you forgive first. So forgiveness is the first step, and it's the thing that we're gonna do most often every single day. So I always tell people feelings are gifts from God. They tell us things, that's all they're there for. They are not there to drive our behavior, our words, our thinking. They just say, ouch, something hurts. It's like a squeaky wheel, right? If it squeaks loud enough and long enough, something's gonna happen. We deal with it. Yeah, we get a light on the dash on our in our car that says we need oil. If we don't put oil in, car's not gonna work. So when I'm hurting, I need to look at it. I need to see it. I need to go, wow, that's there. Acknowledgement. You're speaking to acknowledging it. Yes. Yes, and and maybe I don't know what's hurting or why it's hurting. There's places in my life in the trauma that God is healed. I know he's healing something because it's coming, the pain is coming from so deep within. And I'm just like, God, I don't need to see this. I don't need to relive that. I don't need the answers, just take it away. And he does. Okay, can we speak more to that?

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Because there's a lot of people who relive it. They do, they go back there. They want, they want to be angry, they want to relive it. They remember their uncle, they remember the next door neighbor, the UPS man that continued to rape them or continued to take from them. They just take, take, take, take, and they're angry. Yes. And so then speak to how it continues. If they don't release it, they're still they're trapped.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Yeah, they're trapped. And it's like this unforgiveness is like you have a huge chain link fence around you, and you can't get out. You're caged. And you become like a caged animal. Forgiveness, God brings a holy axe down and just cuts that cage right into and releases you. You're free. And if you haven't tried it, try it. What do you have to lose? Uh-huh. You know, staying caged up for the rest of your life. Um, when Peter was asking Jesus, how many times do I have to forgive? And Jesus said 70 times seven in a day. So do the math. 490 times per person per day. We could be forgiving, forgiving, forgiving, forgiving all day long. But that's what Jesus said. We have to stay in it to win it. Otherwise, we are gonna be a victim.

SPEAKER_03 9:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

And if we we consider ourselves, if we get into that victim mentality, it is hard to come back from that. But you can. So forgiveness is the first step in realizing that um, if I've got hurt or pain, I need to look at it and go, okay, why is that there? Not just cover it up again, push it down again, because it's it's gonna explode sooner or later.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

And the more they cover it up, then you start covering up the things that you should not addictions, correct, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:55

Um behaviors that don't benefit you or anyone else, words that come out of your mouth, I call those bullets, right? I just want to talk just a little bit about that too. I think as parents, and I'm a grandmother, we want our homes to be our sanctuary, our homes should be the safest place on earth. Our homes, a lot of homes are not. No, they are a war zone because we put on our masks and we go out into public, we go to work, we put on our smiles, our best behavior, and we're nice to everybody. And when we come home, we take off the mask and we're just we're demonized. Yeah, been there. I was that person back in the day. Yeah, I've been that person, and it's like I don't want to be this God. I don't want to be, I don't want to raise my kids with this. And I asked, I just said help me, and he he did. But what we need to be aware of is we should do our best at home, yeah, our very best at home. Yeah, we shouldn't be what I call friendly fire. Friendly fire is words that we say that cut deep, looks of disgust, or treating somebody in our family like they're lower than they should be. Yeah, right. We do we just do that. It's an automatic thing, but we need to stop that. We do, it's it's disgusting. How do we do that? Um pray, ask God to cover you. Start, you know, we talked yesterday about um what I did every morning is we started out with a devotion together and we prayed together. We set our day off that way. You and your four daughters, my four daughters, and um, so we did that every day before school. Um, oftentimes I realized that if I played some faith-based music, Christian music, a Christian radio station, um, in the morning as we're getting ready, things were lighter, conversation was lighter, there was more smiles, maybe a little dancing. If I played nothing, or if I played secular music, the tone was different.

SPEAKER_03 11:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

And so just do some experimenting. What works in your house, but cover your house with prayer. Invite the Lord in, invite angels into your home to be on guard. And so it is really, we want to we want to protect our home and let it be the best place, the safest place for our entire family to be.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

How old were your girls when you started doing that?

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Um, we moved here um when my oldest daughter was two. So um almost right away after that. So I had um uh Emily was two, Stephanie was born after we moved in, and then two more daughters were born after that.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

And what time will you wake up?

SPEAKER_00 12:34

6 a.m.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

It's never too early. No, you have to get started on that. And don't wait.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Well, if because if you wait, and I'm I'm this way, if I don't um seek the Lord first thing in the morning, I get busy. And then just sit down and take time.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

It doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

You know, I do speak with the Lord off and on during the day, and and if I just really am purposeful, I can, you know, do some worship or read read something that um enhances kind of my understanding of the Lord. But if I don't meet with him first thing in the morning, that sweetness isn't there.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

I I have a man, when people come to me and they're they'll say, Heather, you you just are filled with so much joy and light. And I'll go, yeah, and but it takes yes, I the Holy Spirit lives inside of me and he shines through me every single day, but it takes intentionality and it takes takes work. And you're speaking about you prioritize with your family, with your kids, because if we don't, and we talked about this in the first one, but like they go out into this world and the world will chew them up. It and sweep them out. We have to armor them up, we have to armor ourselves up. And if you've never done this before, if you're like, well, yeah, that worked great, that works for you because you know how to do all that, and you it's man, start it fresh with your kids. You don't have to know it all to teach them. Teach yourself while you're teaching them. So many people think they have to be um, they have to know it or be adequate, and well, I just I don't know the Bible. I don't understand it, I don't know God's word. That's okay. You have to start somewhere, so don't shy away from that because you don't know it.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

Man, well, you know, here's what I used. Um, and I I'm right there with you, Heather, because I didn't know it all.

SPEAKER_03 14:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

I didn't know God growing up. I didn't become a Christian until um the night before Jerry and I got married, and I don't even know where this came from. So I know that this was the leading of the Holy Spirit. You guys don't know this, but I got baptized the night before we were married.

SPEAKER_03 14:31

Whoa.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Not even knowing the Lord, not even knowing scripture. All I could think about in my mind, this is what I heard. I want the old gone and the new to come. And boy, this urban husband. God is so good. All we have to do is just say yes, Lord. And then He just leads if we allow it. We, you know, we're not in the driver's seat, we're in the passenger seat. He's the driver. And it's not, and it's not all roses the minute you do that.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

You still have trials, you still have to. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

So speak speak to that for those people who well, uh, just to give a recommendation, um, I had a really sweet um young gal give me a gift, and it was a a family devotion um by Josh McDowell, I believe. And the so you just read a scripture in the book, it just was right there. You read the story, which was um age appropriate for my girls, and and then you read a little prayer and you were done. I didn't come up with it, and I didn't turn to my Bible because I didn't know how to do that. So I just started out with that devotion. And you know, that was a 365-day devotion. So the next year we just started it over again. And so the more that you repeat those kinds of things, the more it instills in in the children.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

That's a really great point. Thank you. I have so many daily devotions. I have 365 times 10 around the house. Amos knows it's like they invade our bed and our dresser. Um, but that to just go and just get a daily devotion. Um, there's a couple that I just love that I I can put in the show notes that and then just start there. Yeah, just it a 10 minute, 10 minutes. Read it, yep, discuss it, and and see how it transforms you. It's so great.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

And I just want to say too that, you know, sometimes um I'm a morning person, so 6 a.m. is okay for me. It wasn't always great for my daughters. When they got to be a teenager, getting up at 6 a.m., they weren't happy, and I could see that on their face. And so sometimes his parents were like, Oh, they're not happy, I shouldn't do this. No, you should. You should anyway. Um, but maybe dinner time works better for some families. Let's just we'll read it and then we'll eat. Yeah, you know, or bedtime works better, or eight o'clock, or whatever. So pick a time. Yeah, just be diligent with that time.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

And there's a high chance that if they're not doing that with their kids today, they will be.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

That's that generational change. What you did for a decade and a half, two decades is going to last hundreds of years.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yeah. So I I just have to share something really precious. This is so precious to me. Um, I have the privilege of watching one of my grandchildren every Thursday, my little grandson Henry, and he is 16 months now. And just yesterday, I was listening um to some worship music, and you know, every once in a while we just get caught up and you know, I just raise my hand and his little hand went up. His little pudgy little hand with dimples in it went up, and I was like, bless my heart, Lord.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Oh, yeah, they're watching. They are they are watching. Okay, so there's parents who no longer have kids in the house to do devotions with. It it it is not too late. I think about when we at any given point at any time in our life, the transformation can start. And I I see it in so many different people where I'm like, wow, that is so great. Because um, 60 years old, 70 years old, there's some people that are on there in the hospice who are like, I don't, nothing's worked, so let's do this. You know, like it's you're never too late. So, yes, we're speaking to moms with little kiddos in the house and you know, grandparents, but if if you don't, man, even just going to a local nursing home and reading it with somebody, or it's just yeah, their relation. God wants us in relation. Um, you the the people that you work with and the families that you work with, um, it's it's very hard to get to that place of, okay, we need help. Because so often, especially you're we're looking, um, we were you and I were talking about generations like two, three away. It was shut your mouth, sweep it under the rug, and move on. You don't talk about your feelings, you don't do anything with your feelings, like you just um, because and no one nobody wants to be uncomfortable. And I am I am ready to scream from the mountaintops that that is not the way to live. So the hiding, the the not not sharing your feelings or something you've gone through with somebody, it's like we as humans have the right like to to reach out and have that relationship with someone and say, this is what's going on in my life. Um, I was told to maybe not talk about this because we don't want to hinder, blah, blah, blah. We gotta start talking to people, right? Like to break this generational cycle, we have got to start talking.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

And most people honestly are gonna talk within their sphere of people they trust, right? We're talking on a podcast right now. And so what I'm about to share, um, maybe the first time that anyone in my family has shared this, but it is something that is part of my trauma history. And growing up with uh trauma, um, in uh sexual abuse, um, I this is a generational thing. Um, my grandfather would give a hug and then he would try to slip his hand around under your arm to the front of you. He didn't do it to the boys, but he did it to the women, to the girls.

SPEAKER_03 20:11

Just to get a quick grab.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

And my mother and my aunts would be, stop it, dad, and then move on. And my cousins and I would be like, grandpa, and then move on. And that's just how we lived. And I didn't it never was um spoken that that wasn't right. Well, it's a sexual perversion, and point blank is it's not okay to do that. That's not a right, no, it's an invasion, it's a boundary, it's a boundary, and um it wasn't until I was at my nephew's graduation party years and years later. My daughters were teenagers, and my grandma and grandpa were there, and I loved them dearly. And I said, Oh, grandma and grandpa are leaving, go give grandpa a hug. And my girls and my nieces said, We're not gonna go hug grandpa. I'm like, What? You will hug your grandpa. We're not gonna hug grandpa, he's a pervert. I was like, Oh, you're right. You don't have to hug grandpa anymore. And that opened up my eyes to how we sweep things under the rug, how we live with generational sickness. Um, that what my grandpa did, my uncle did to my sister and I as well. And it just can carry on down through the generations because those kinds of things are never dealt with. They're seen, they're experienced, but they're never stopped. Like grandpa, that is not okay. It is not okay. And I think we need to start empowering us, each other, to say it's not okay. Don't do that to me. You know, like when kids. We we teach them to say we tell them no, but when they tell us no, we just kind of laugh and do it anyway, like tickling. Yeah. If they say stop, then we need to stop. We need to empower them to set those boundaries.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

You mentioned that yesterday too, when you talked about leaving family reunions, things get the drunkenness would start and you would leave. And you would teach them that it's okay to say no. You teach them those boundaries.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

So that's the second example you've given that empowered them. And I think that's really just really good feedback that that's that works, and it's it's it's hard to do in the moment, but it's good and it's good for them and it's stopping this the trending through generations.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Yeah, you know what, Amos, it wasn't hard for me. Um, so many times people are like, that must have been so hard for you to just get up and leave. It wasn't because I wasn't in agreement with that kind of drinking. I'm okay if somebody has a drink, but not drink to get drunk, which is what I saw at our reunions. You can have fun without it. You don't have to get to that point. And my daughters still to this day agree with that. But also another thing that my daughters learned through that is don't let somebody else's emotional manipulation control you. And I'm gonna just share, I use kind of a metaphor of yard work, and every one of my clients knows this, my daughters know this, and many of my friends know this. So you just picture a yard, and um, so like my farm, I have 10 acres, everything inside of my boundary is my responsibility. Everything outside of that, the fields around here are not my responsibility, right? Yeah, so God is actually a God of boundaries. If you go through Genesis and the Ten Commandments and even into the New Testament, he says, This is your responsibility, and this is what I'll do. So he draws a line, right? Um, emotions, yeah, take your he's like, don't be anxious. How do we not be anxious? Well, by prayer and supplication, make your requests known to me. God's like, I'll help you with that, right? Don't be anxious, um, don't worry, don't be sad, right? Walk in the fruits of the spirit. So feelings when we have something um yucky, we need to kind of go, okay, what is that? Because if I don't pay attention, it's like a weed in my yard. It's gonna just wreck my yard. Gotta pull it out and get rid of it. You heard her, Amos. The weeds. The weeds.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

The weeds. You had to pull it.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

It just can wreck everything. They can. Yeah. And um, another thing that is yard work is my thoughts, right? Take your thoughts captive through the obedience of Christ. Yes. Um, and it I just I do this little diagram. It's like, what does God say that we do with our thoughts? Well, we take them captive, we think about what we're thinking about, we pray, we go to the scriptures, right? If I don't do that, then I'm gonna sneak over into another place where I start doing what-if stories. Like, what if this happens, then this, then this, then this, and I sit and I think through all of that, and my body's becoming a wreck, and I'm crying because I'm thinking about what could happen, and it's not even real. Yeah, but my body thinks it's real. So I've just put myself through trauma again, right? Yeah, if I realize that's happening, I can just go right back to take my thoughts captive. I'm gonna pray, I'm gonna give this to the Lord, I'm gonna forgive. But if I don't recognize it that it's happening, I'm gonna get over into the feeling category where I'm anxious, I'm sad, I'm depressed, I'm angry. Right. And if I don't recognize it there, I'm gonna get into the physical manifestation of I'm sick. I, right, my body starts to react to it. I have full-blown um anxiety, generalized anxiety can start getting diagnosed. But at any point along that path, I can stop it and go right back over to take my thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ. Yes. What does scripture say about this?

SPEAKER_02 26:06

A lot of people um self-love. So self-love is a really big, big thing. And the someone said this to me, and I forever listen to myself, talk to myself in my head, right? So I am. So everything, every single thing that follows the I am is what you are. Right. You believe it in yourself. And so I remember it always, I'm so depressed, I'm so anxious, I'm so sad, I'm so and you think all these things and you become that. Right. Words are powerful. Oh man. So I stopped. I'm like, I am strong, I am confident, I am a good mother, you know, and I'm affirmations are so powerful.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Words have the power of life and death. It's written, it's written in the word of God. And so God's word doesn't lie. So power of life and death. If I am speaking negatively about myself and believing those lies, um, yeah, it hurts. It hurts big. Yeah. Right? But if I can turn that around and just start with small affirmations, somebody said, Oh, I don't get anything done all day, and I'm just I'm just a poor person as a wife and a mother. I'm like, hey, you are keeping your kids alive every day. She's like, I am. You know what? She thinks that's a small affirmation. I think it's huge. Yeah, it's keeping your kids alive every day.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

And then speaking that to others, I when I see something in somebody, I speak it. I don't, even if it's a stranger, I will say, I really love how you just um the kids, like your kids, I love how you just talk to your kids. That was really beautiful. How you just affirmed them. It because people, some when they are doing the negative always overpowers usually the the good, right? So pointing out the good and speaking it into people's lives, they're like, you see them stand up a little taller or feel a little bit, it's like you affirm them to do it again and again and again in the in the positive.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

So I am we loved, we watched a couple little things on um where you're flipping through, and this mom speaks to this little girl and has her repeat the words of the confidence, like you say it, say it. I am strong, I am this, you know, and this little loved. I am I am loved, yeah. You see this little girl, she goes from crying and she got hurt, and so she goes from crying to this just I'm good. Are you good? I'm good, you know? It and to do that to our kids is so important to speak life into them, your husband, because you can create so much hurt and pain, like you said with words, but you can also create so much beautiful, like just bright, beautiful awesomeness in people when you speak life into them.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

You know, one of the first things after forgiveness that I do, um, we look at generational curses, we look at trauma when people come to see me for counseling. But I challenge them to go through the word of God and seek out scripture that's that God is speaking to them, how much he loves them. And I'd tell you what, you start speaking scripture out over yourself, there's power right there. There's healing power, that's the that's the greatest affirmation right there. And I think um, excuse me, when God said, Let me be your daddy, I was about 20 years old, I didn't know a daddy's love. I only knew daddies that hurt me and uh men that hurt me. And so trusting a God that I couldn't see or I could only hear him once in a while, um, and I I wasn't really in the word at that point. Um, but seeking out and just just spending time with this spirit God that my spirit can resonate with. I can't see there's nothing greater than God's love. When you really just say, God, show me your love, show me how you love. He does. And there's things like I've said things like this. I don't know what holy is, God. I don't have no idea what holy is. I don't know how to worship. Show me how to do that. He just does. You know, it's like all of a sudden I know how it's not like instant, but it's just a time of washing over Kim and teaching her, and then you you get it.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Yeah, it it's fun when you start to see it in yourself because he does transform from the inside out. Many people will say, How are you staying sober? You're you don't you're not going to AA, you're not um like what are you doing? Well, the truth of it is I could not do this without my relationship with Christ at all. I believe with all my heart, and this is my own opinion, but it's um, I know it's yours as well. Like I you with addiction, getting sober and staying sober from anything, any addiction at all, you have to have a clear, defined, amazing relationship with Christ. And you have to tune in and you have to continue to dig, dig, dig, dig.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

And I want to say too that you can, you know, there is that person, that spirit person of Jesus. Yeah. The word is Jesus written. Yes. And that's where you're gonna, you know, searching the scriptures and and planting them in your heart and having them be what you maybe speak or think about. That's gonna be the healing part.

SPEAKER_03 31:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

And spending and then trusting God enough to spend time with Him. That that's a step forward. That's right. Prioritizing it.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Yeah. Sitting, you have to prioritize that that quiet time. What do you what what do you think about all this? The the generational trauma and stuff. Because I've I've I'm looking at my husband Amos asking that question because I believe, and I've stated it, that I'm alive today just due to your generational prayer in your family. Um, your family's not perfect. There's stuff you know that goes on in every single family, um, but in who you are, in your learned spirit, and the things that um I'm just so grateful for the way that you were raised. And so I like what are your thoughts when you hear this?

SPEAKER_01 32:09

I th I think it's hard to break the momentum. A body of motion tends to stay in motion in the direction that it's moving, and I think it's hard to to change that. But once you realize that this is not gonna happen by itself, you can start to take action to move that that thing that's heading straight and move it to the left or to the right. But you've gotta you've gotta make that decision, and you've got to in my case, it kind of had to get frustrated in a way and say, This is this is I'm this is not okay. We're gonna we're gonna make some changes here and invite the Lord. In my case, I uh I feel very blessed and fortunate that God placed learning on my heart. And I think it was for Heather. It was about 10 years before I met Heather. Yeah, just this desire to learn. I heard one podcast, Focus on the Family Podcast, and I realized I didn't know what I don't know.

unknown 33:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

And it just gave me this hunger, and I spent the next 10 years learning about being a better person, about humans, about relationships, about myself, boundaries, boundaries, all these things, and it really prepared us for what we went through, Heather and I.

SPEAKER_02 33:22

In in any other situation, I guarantee that you would have divorced me.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

If if you would, I mean, I don't want not you specifically, but in society in culture that today, it's it is a it's a use as an excuse all the time.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

Yes. And I was deep in darkness and in hell and in addiction with alcoholism. And even though it was frustrating, you still stood by my side and you did not do what all other families or husbands or wives, and not not I don't like to ever generalize, but it is very common that when you're going through trouble, this is not what I signed up for. This is I'm not dealing with this, I'm leaving you. Right? Like that's we're seeing in you as a therapist, especially marriage and family. It's so easy to just get out. And the truth is the beauty is just behind the work. It really is. Like I mean, sitting across the table and looking at Amos, Kim said last night for the f you met him for the first time, and he is walking away, and you're like, he's wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Oh, thanks.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

And I and I just I'm grateful, and you've said too, like it, I would have missed out. I would have missed out on this heather. Yeah, the heather that I knew was there if I would have continued this generational trauma.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

You know, I I just want to speak over you two. Um last night I shared Colossians 3, 18 and 19, and we talked a little bit about that. And it says that wives should submit to their husbands as is fitting in the Lord. And it also says that husbands should um, I don't know, bless their wives and not be bitter again, love their wives and not be bitter against them. I have an expositors Bible and it expands on the meaning of both of those scriptures. And so Colossians 3.18, yes, wives should submit to their husband, and it's fitting in the Lord, inasmuch as he walks in the sphere of the Lord. That's a game changer. It it changes a little bit what that scripture is telling me if I just read it. So it is good to look into scripture, not just read it and not understand it. And then 319, um that the husband will love his wife as much as he loves the Lord. And so as I was sitting there thinking and just talking and just in my mind asking the Lord, what does this even mean? This doesn't even make sense to me. Through probably the last 10 years of seeking the Lord in my marriage and um struggling a little bit, just you know, after 38 years, your marriage sometimes can just be um coasting, you know. And you know, you just want spark in your marriage. So it's like, Lord, you know, show me these things. And I'm actually writing a book, and I was gonna write this because I think a lot of people have written about it, and even Christian authors have written, you know, that Cinderella story where she is um wanting her Prince Charming to come and take her away on a horse and have that beautiful wedding and all that kind of stuff. And and a lot of what I've heard or read lately is that's just Hollywood. You know, girls, you really just grow up. You just, you know, marriage is hard, it's a lot of work. That's true. Marriage is a lot of work, and we need to give and give and give and quit belly aching about giving. But um, so I was gonna write that, and and I really felt like I heard the Lord saying, No, you're not. You're not gonna write that because that's not even true. I made women to want men to be their Prince Charming. Yeah, and it's true, ladies, if we could just admit that. And men need to rise up and take care of women in a sense where um they're precious. They, you know, they're just they're just like um, they're really something. And if that's the relationship that God wants a husband and wife to have, that's what we're working for, right? That's what we're working toward. So if a man is angry or not treating his wife well, I'm my prayer is that the wife will be like, wow, he is struggling with his relationship with the Lord too, then. So I'm gonna pray for him to seek the Lord. I'm gonna pray for something in him to open up that he sees the Lord. And she needs to be diligent to do that. That's a win-win because if he rekindles his love of the Lord, he's gonna rekindle that same love for her. Now he's walking in the sphere of the Lord, which she can totally submit to. That's what we're that's that relationship that God blesses.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

And is she is she being public about that or is she being more?

SPEAKER_00 38:06

Oh, I I words have the power of life and death, right, Amos? So please be careful with your words. Don't go and tell everybody how awful it is at home. Talk to someone, but be in prayer, most you know, mostly be in prayer. And and it is, it is, you know, something that we need to hold. It's a covenant, it's a a vow that we made at our wedding day before God, before all of the people at the church. I'm gonna love you through, you know, um sickness and health, through, you know, richer for poorer, all of those things. And so when it comes down to this is the hard end of our marriage, are we gonna rise up with our our you know and honor our vow? Yeah, or are we just gonna walk away? The world says walk away. Scripture says don't. Now, if there's abuse in the marriage, then you know, if you need safety, leave. But perfectly that husband will get help. Yeah, or the wife will get help if she's the abuser. Yeah, and then you can come back together again.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

How how easy is it to mistakenly criticize your husband and have him shut those doors to his heart?

SPEAKER_00 39:17

And it can happen, right? It can happen.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

Miscommunication, you think you're doing something right, you're trying to encourage, and it's it is misinterpreted, and taken is taken as criticism, and you just now made things harder. How often does that happen?

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Oh, uh all the time, right? But I go back to yard work. If I did that and the Holy Spirit convicts me, like you just did that to your husband. I need to humble myself, get on my knees, yeah, repent. I'm so sorry. And then I need to go to my husband and I need to say, you know what, I I did that. Will you forgive me? That's the beginning of healing. So forgiveness isn't the end all, it's the beginning of healing the emotions and healing the mistake, right? The sin, whatever it is. And that's the beginning of healing, and that needs to take place.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

I I love love, I love loving on Amos and admitting me too.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

I like it.

SPEAKER_02 40:11

They're so sweet. I know truly. We're coming out on like five minutes left here. Um there's loving on Amos is such an honor. And I've in learning and in reading scripture, and I'll have people like, this summoning to your husband's a bunch of crap. Whoa. It is not saying that you need to lay down and take it, take whatever is going on. What you just said, Kim, is it's that is life-changing for a marriage, and not only for a marriage, but for your foundation, for your children. So going back a little bit to that generational piece, I really believe that the foundation of the family, especially in America, is failing miserably. It is, and that is where a lot of the generational trauma is happening. We've allowed way too much to go wrong for way too long. And um, I've watched married couples who are just at each other, and I'll I'll hear them say say something, and I'm like, holy buckets, I would never speak to Amos like that. Like those words instantly tear your husband down and the tone, and um, it's just it's years and years and years of pain and this the big the bickering and the fighting and all this stuff, and it's like the kids and all the people around you are watching, people are learning and they're watching. And um, cute little story. Pre-K, we went to our to Evelyn's little Christmas party, and it said, Um, are your there's like there was this big sign that said, Is your husband or is your um mom and dad on the knotty or nice list? And Evelyn said, and the words that were written down was they're on the the nice list because they talk nice to each other. Oh, what a testimony, right? I took a picture of it because I thought that is that is so beautiful to come from a little four-year-old's mouth of man, there's just that she they're watching. And they and they'll say all the time, you love dad, don't you? I'm like, man, I do. I've and I and I feel like we're at 10% of what our our life is gonna be because I've only been sober for three years, and I just I look forward to what's to come because I know God has some really incredible things yet that are in store for us. Yeah, and um it's not all marriages and relationships, no matter where you're, I don't care if you've been married 50 years, you still have at least maybe 20 years left or 10 years left with this person. Learn to love on them. Right. Choose it, choose it.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Love is a choice, it's not a feeling. A lot of people are like, well, you know, I I used to feel like I love them, but I don't feel that anymore. Well, that's like a lust. That's that's not love. Love is a choice, and um, we need to choose that. So it's sometimes it is. It's it's we talked about affirmations before. Try saying something nice, try getting get get in a different habit. Yeah, you know, be purposeful. We're we're coming up on a a new year, and I did not make new year's resolutions, but I I actually wrote down five things that I'm gonna focus on for 2023. Yeah, they're my focus, they're they're what I'm gonna remind myself every morning or once a week. Did I do these things? Am I am I still focused on these five things? And and I think that again, we need to be purposeful in marriage and in our families. Yeah. Because we are children, see. You know, there's so many couples that will come to me and they'll be like, Yeah, we're we're really we don't fight in front of our kids. I'm like, oh, they know that there's trouble. Yeah, they know it. You can sense it. You don't even have to say a word. It like we right back at the beginning, we don't see it or we don't say anything, we just live it. You know, the trauma, the the hurt, the abuse, they see it. And really what we're doing. Is we're the example of what we want our kids to experience when they get married. So are we walking out the love? Are we walking out the forgiveness? Are we walking out the grace and mercy toward our spouse? And then we walk it out down to our children. So there's levels. God is the giver.

SPEAKER_03 44:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

And then he fills up husband and wife. They fill each other the needs. And then we feed the children. It should never be the children feeding the parents' ego. And I, you know, generational curses are so many kids that are held captive to feed mom and dad's ego.

SPEAKER_03 44:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

If you do it wrong, we're going to look bad. Stop it. Ah, yes, knock it off. Just love on them, right? And let's teach them to walk the walk. Just and but we have to walk the walk too, because it's not do as we say, not as we do. We have to do it.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

Gosh, we could do so many different like a marriage and a parenting, and which we are, we're gonna move forward and do other podcasts centered on marriage and centered on parenting because um again, because of the generational trauma, there is um, I was talked this way, so now this is all I know is to talk this way or to to scold this way, or to, and I have had really it's been very hard for me to not repeat, right? Right. And my parents are beautiful and so loving, but there are definitely things that I want to do different. Um, and rightfully so, I think a lot of our a lot of our generation is saying um a really good friend of mine in Sioux Falls, he has a uh business called Think3D, him and his partner Tamian and Bonnie, and they say when they go into corporations and they're teaching leadership and training and um the no victimization, all the things, like they're just fantastic human beings. They will ask the entire audience who who would like to be your mom, or like how would you want to be your mom and dad? And Kim, I'm not kidding you, no hands go up. Wow, yeah, it is it's it's sad. And it's because people, it's just like we're we've just we've had so much hurt and feel so much hurt, and it's around us, and it's like, well, then what are we doing to change it? This generational trauma can stop. I I'm do I'm doing it. You did it. I mean, like there, it's it is possible to put your foot down to say no more. And I'm gonna love on my kids well, I'm gonna love on everyone around me well, even the ones that are super hard to love on, I'm still gonna love on them. If if I'm struggling with my husband and things are not good and he is being so mean to me, the last thing I want to do is love on him. But biblically, if we get up in the morning before he does and we make a pot of coffee and we set a cup of coffee in front of our husband and we say, Good morning, I love you. He that it I mean, like he literally would go whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa was happening. Right. And doing that every day for like a month, you start to see, right, the softening and the changing of the heart.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

It's following the cue of the Holy Spirit. There were times when I did not want to hug my daughter, and the Holy Spirit's like, go hug her, and I'd be like, ugh, and I'd go hug her, and it would just melt us. So being obedient is really important. But one other thing, too, is we want to guard against a bitter root, and that's actually scriptural. And a bitter root is actually a flowering plant grown at the base of the Rocky Mountains, and it has to, it has like a bark-like root, and it has to dig through the rocks to get to water, and it has a fragrance. So everywhere that root goes, everything around it smells like that root. Um, and so we want to guard against bitterness in our life, and that can come from trauma. And so I had forgiven my mother, but the Lord later revealed to me that I had a bitter root also toward her, and it was in this I will not parent the way my mother did. And my mother was a lovely person, but she was avoidant in parenting. She was not there, she I became an ambivalent, attached child. And um, so I had to forgive her deeper, deeper levels. Forgiveness is like an onion. You just peel the layers away to get to the center. And um, the bitter root um actually um I had to say things like, With your help, God, I will do things different. Not I will not parent like my mother, but with your help, God. So I just want to really encourage anybody wanting to change those patterns, Lord. I need your help. I can only do this through Christ who gives me strength, right?

SPEAKER_02 48:34

Yes. Oh, that's a good place to stop right there. Say it one more time.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

The last I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength.

SPEAKER_02 48:45

Amen.