SPEAKER_04 0:00

Here comes the sand do. Here comes the sun that say it's all right.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Okay, you guys, I am here. My name is Tracy Kirby, and I am here with Heather Kittleson and Amos Kittleson. And I could not be more honored to be here, truly. And we are just gonna kick off this amazing podcast with Heather's story. And so we're just gonna dive in, Heather. Tell us who you are, where you're from. Obviously, we know now who you're married to. Me. Hallelujah. Um, tell us about your kids. Tell us where you grew up, tell us all the things.

SPEAKER_03 0:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Well, I am Heather Kittelson, and I am the host of this incredibly awesome new podcast called Fortitude. And I have four beautiful children that are Evelyn, Stella, Brittany, and Jacob. And I am married to my soulmate, Amos Kittelson, who is sitting here to my left. And we, gosh, we've been married nine years now. It's been nine years. Oh, best nine years of my life. Even through the tough stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Really good nine years.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Really good nine years. And I work at Volunteers of America currently as the foundation director. And I'm originally from Slayton, Minnesota, which is the very southwestern corner, and have three older brothers and a mother and a father, Larry and Linda. I loved growing up with three older brothers because they they kept me in check, kept me tough. I was very much a tomboy growing up. And then I went to Mankato State and graduated with my LED degree. And I love sports.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

I am as real as they get. I love it. Okay, and Amos, tell us about you.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

So I'm originally from Sioux Falls and uh graduated high school here. And uh winter of 96 we had a something below wind chills, and I swore I would move away and never come back. And I did that for a while, managed to stay away for about 15 years, spent some time in the in the Air Force and over in Europe. And I was living uh in Florida at the time uh in 1990. Oh, I can't remember the date exactly, the year.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

When you graduated?

SPEAKER_00 2:25

When I was living in Florida, 90 uh 2011. Sitting on the beach, and I felt like God said, You need to move back to South Dakota. And I said, Do I have to? And he said, Yes, you have to. So I did. And I met Heather four months later, and so it pays to obey.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

That's so good. That's so good. And you guys just celebrated your nine-year anniversary. We did this summer. Well, we're here today to talk about just your guys' story, what's transpired over your the time of your marriage? And there was a specific time, just a couple years ago, 2019, that really just changed your guys' life, turned it upside down and set it on a different trajectory. So maybe we just start there, you guys. Can we talk about that year? You had recently had your precious Evelyn, you had a baby, and then that triggered something, Heather. Do you want to talk about that? Will you tell us what happened after that?

SPEAKER_02 3:21

So Evelyn was born in April of 2018. And I had a lot of friends who talked to me about postpartum depression and talked to me about what they were going through. And I could have empathy for them, but I I just could sit with them and try to be there for them. But I could never relate because even after the other three children, I had not experienced postpartum depression. I'm a pretty even keel, not a lot of highs, not a lot of lows, kind of a person. And so um, when they would talk about this depression, I I didn't know until I had the opportunity to experience it full force. So after Evelyn was born, I have three children that are all under four. So newborn and two-year-old and a four-year-old, and Jacob, I don't think I think eight. I don't remember when how old he was, but and Amos is an entrepreneur who has his own business called Sidewalk Technologies. And I I was working part-time at Volunteers of America, helping out with his business, had all the kids and just homemaker duties and all the things, right? So I think on top of all the society, societal pressure and just all the things that have to get done on a daily basis, and then all of a sudden this depression sets in that I was unfamiliar with. So being behind the wheel, and all of a sudden, like, wow, I'm already into Sioux Falls, and I don't remember even turning or putting putting a blinker on. So to me, that's when it started to phase me. Like, I why don't I feel anything? Why am I in this fog? What is going on? And I I thought, well, I'm just it's just a bad day. Like I would just chalk it up for like a bad day. And then um when I started craving alcohol and realizing that it wasn't just the fun that Heather would always have, or because the way the way I grew up, which I'll get into, was you have alcohol at everything. You just do. It's alcoholisms in my family for our generations. It's a terrible generational curse in my family. And so to to drink to feel, because I was trying to feel something, I'd be just being numb, I'm like, well, this is gonna make me happy. I'll I'll get I'll feel happy. And it wasn't making me happy. And so then I was starting to get really nervous because then the feelings were starting to get more to anxiety and more to fear. And for those who do have alcoholism in their family or have any type of depression, anxiety and the fear, and all, and then you start to manipulate the world around you and you start to kind of map out your life around alcohol, and even with your kids and work, and when you're gonna get stop at the next place, and how you're gonna stop somewhere different the next day because you don't want them to catch on. And so your mind becomes just this. I mean, the trying to feel good, trying to feel happy, it literally backfires. It's like a straight, deep, dark, hazy, uh, just the it's like a pit. When people talk about the pit of hell, that is what it felt like. It felt like I could not get out of this pit of just disgust and evil. And every day I'd say, today's gonna be different. Today's gonna be different. I got this. And not only that, but you're trying to hide from everybody around you because you don't want anyone to figure you out. And so that really didn't hit, I mean, it it hit me right after I had Evelyn, but it really sped up probably the summer of 2019.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

So Evelyn's year birthday, and then the summer, um, I started to lose weight. And um I had started because of the drinking, you go through some pretty terrible withdrawals. And again, I know our audience will get this, but it's like when you are drinking, you save a little bit in the bottle that you're drinking from for the next time you're allowed to drink. So because I would not drink during the day until after, like I would always give myself till noon, so I'd get all my work done, all my job stuff done. And then it's like you save that because you you're just your withdrawals, you're shaking, you're sweaty, you're hot, and you're trying to go through your day, your morning routines and your day. And I was hiding it from Amos, and I was hiding it from the kids, and I was, I mean, I was drinking straight vodka from the bottle in the afternoon into the evening. Oh my goodness. And again, had to be super strategic because I had a part-time job, and another part-time job, I wasn't really helping as much as I tried to think I was helping out with Sidewalk, I was actually very upset with Sidewalk because he's an entrepreneur. He there was many years where Amos didn't bring home a paycheck, and he's just he's an entrepreneur, and those who have entrepreneurs in their life, they get it.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

Long hours, late nights. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

And I knew in my heart he was he was doing it. There was no go get a job, Amos. He tried it once, and it was super, he was very, he was depressed in that time. I remember seeing the life of him just sucked out of him because he is not meant to behind be behind a desk working. And so I'm dealing with this alone, thinking that I'm hiding it from everyone around me, but there are people starting to figure me out. And if you started to figure me out, I would push you away. And I would not, if you tried to text me and you're and you'd say, mention something about, are you okay? I feel like you're not attending a lot of stuff lately. We miss you because I'm I'm out in the public all the time. I love people. I I people give me energy. That's what I do for my job. So when I started to really isolate myself, that's where people started to get a little bit worried about me. And my Nanamus' relationship was really rocky during that time because he's trying to figure out what's wrong with me. I'm trying to for him not to figure out what's wrong with me. I'm hiding, and I only had one bottle in the house at a time. So just the fear of him figuring it out, finding, so I was tiptoeing and he'd go upstairs, I'd go downstairs. I mean, we were just on eggshells all the time, and I was very combative. Alcohol makes you very, very combative. And when you're sad and you're trying to be happy, but you're not, it's just this fake, gross aura that just in it just infested our house.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Right. It's a cycle. Yeah. Yeah. I want to pause right here, Heather, and go back a little just a second. So you've you're experiencing this postpartum depression, and it started, you started drinking to feel something. And maybe you wanted to feel happy, but really you just wanted to feel something. Now, prior to that, what was your how did you participate in alcohol before that? You had mentioned that, you know, in your family you grew up with alcohol. Yeah. What did it look like beforehand with alcohol?

SPEAKER_02 10:43

So I don't want to go back too far. But the first taste, and again, high school friends, I was super athletic. I did not have a sip of alcohol until I was 16. And by the time I did, it was okay to have it. Like it just was accepted. It was accepted where I, I mean, everywhere I went. I feel like it was everywhere. And before that, I hadn't seen it because I just was in sports. I loved them. I loved school. I loved my friends. I loved being a part of this of the student council. I loved being a part of the yearbook club. I mean, I was in everything. And then the minute I got a taste of it, it was instantly, that's I quit basketball. I stayed, I played volleyball and I still did track all the way through. But it's like I quit one sport, so I wouldn't have to necessarily worry about, you know, all year round. And I'd go up to our local to Marshall, Minnesota, and that's where my brother was, and we'd party up there, and we'd go to all the other local towns and party. And then it was in my family. I mean, it just every holiday, every, I mean, wedding, it didn't matter. It didn't matter, alcohol was there. And I remember watching the dynamic of my extended family. My dad grew up with a mom and dad who were alcoholics. My dad and all six of his siblings got put into foster care. And that rocked their world. It rocked their world that their mom and dad chose alcohol over them. And then they got all split up. And my dad got put in a home where that was still a part of their life was alcohol. And he ended up being, I can't remember exactly how he says it, but it's like bottle washer, money provider, something, something, because he was the oldest of these families. And so he was just a natural caretaker. He has such a big heart. But fast forward how many years later he has a family and he's doing everything he can to raise us up in a very good, awesome Christian home, but there's still alcohol involved, right? And so going to the extended, I would watch my aunts and uncles who are also battling this disease, and now it's in their family, and it's, I mean, it's just generational. So it's like it's accepted, it is what it is, and they don't know, and we don't know any different. I didn't know any different. And so going to college, I went to Mankato State, and I am seriously lucky I'm alive. I was drinking Jack Daniels on the rocks. I was, I mean, I remember trying to outbong beer with some of the heaviest football players at Mankato State, and I would win. And that's not, I mean, oh my goodness. I would so thinking about a 130-pound girl next to a 350-pound linebacker, and I can bong the beer faster than him. And I was happy about that, right? Because that's cool. And it like I look back at that now and go, what are you thinking? But so there's no reason that I shouldn't have ever gotten that I I have never been pulled over. I've never had a minor consumption. All my friends did. All my friends got minor consumptions. I never did. I never got pulled over, never had a DUI. And there is absolutely no reason that I shouldn't. Because I mean, the only difference, because alcohol, alcoholism and addiction does not discriminate at all. And so the only difference is like they got caught and I didn't. Those behind bars or those who have had something terrible happen is just they've they got caught. And so the only reason I can sit here today and say that I have a clean it's on the record. I have nothing on the record. I don't have a clean slate, but it's it's been, I feel like God's given me definitely a second chance, and hence why I'm speaking out and why I want other people to get help. But to fully answer your question, um, so after that, I moved to Minneapolis and I was always the one who spearheaded the parties. I was always the one who got everyone together. I was always the pusher. I was always like, oh, come on, one more, one more, because I was the life of the party. I loved socializing with people and I would bring everybody in. And I did that all the way through living in Minneapolis. And then I was married for five years. And during that time, um, I it was a unique relationship, and I was, I was, alcohol was not a part of our marriage. And so I think through past relationships, I learned to hide it because I had lived my whole life up until that point of age 23 with alcohol. And so then when it wasn't a part of my life, I didn't know really how to live without it being a part of my life. So I would hide it. Interesting. Yeah. And so now I through my testimony, I'm looking back going, yeah, that's why I was really good at it. That's why Amos was like, You're gosh, you smell like alcohol, but you don't, you're not drinking. And I could say I wasn't because I could manipulate and I could hide it and I could do it really well. Um, and that comes from a lot of my past too, of just always having it, always finding a way around it, always finding an excuse, because I always thought I had to have it.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

And that it really speaks to what you learned growing up because you associated social time and fun with alcohol. Those two weren't separate, they were combined, it's like you couldn't have one without the other. Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

And you learn that at a young age. And it's not something you learn from your friends, like you learn that from family, right? And that was embedded, ingrained in you. And so I think that speaks to the importance of parents, what and what their kids are learning in the household. Yeah. How it affects them years down the road.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Yep. That's a great point. And to you, Amos, too, when all of this is going on, when she's starting to struggle with this after Evelyn, what is your perception? You touched on it a little bit, Heather, but what are you noticing?

SPEAKER_02 16:51

Well, be nice. Tread carrot, tremendous.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

No. So you know, I I waited till I was in my 30s to get married. I tried, you know, I spent a lot of time over in Europe and just tried to find the one, you know, and I moved, I had to come back to South Dakota to find the one. And here we are five years in, six years in, and it's all falling apart. And I don't know, I don't understand why. And for me, divorce wasn't an option. You know, we said vows at the altar in cold weather outside. Yeah, true, yeah. It was cold. But um I didn't know how I I knew it was falling apart, I knew that we couldn't get divorced. I just didn't know what that looked like. Uh Heather would come upstairs, I would go downstairs. She was a literally a walking argument. And if you know Heather, you know that's not her.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

That's not her.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

And it just speaks to what alcohol did to her brain and how's how it affected her personality so much. I could walk in and from work and hear one word, and I could tell if it was my Heather or what I call the alternate Heather. I didn't know that she was drinking, she did a really good job of hiding it. And I would I could smell it and I would justify it with some other you know crazy idea. I believed her. I really think I really thought it came down to working too hard and and being too busy and not eating right, and I thought her brain was just starved from nutrients and it just affected her personality. That was what that was what I thought for over a year. So, you know, when it when the revelation finally came out, it was like, oh, okay. Well there now I know what's going on. Kind of, because I still didn't know what was going on because I didn't understand what alcoholism really is.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Right. So Heather, will you talk about now the day that it all kind of came out when Heather really when you just came face to face with what was really going on?

SPEAKER_02 19:07

December 5th of 2019, I realized quickly that, or leading up to that day, I realized that I'm an alcoholic. And that was scary. That was scary. I tried to justify it. I tried to say, gosh, I quit while I was pregnant. I can quit again. I can I can go without it. Because in the early years of our relationship, we would have wine and beer and we'd go out. I mean, we'd have a blast together. Going downtown, and we had date night, and we said, let's go have a shot at tequila at every place because we love tequila. And we were laughing. And I mean, so we had a wonderful time together. And so having alcohol in our marriage didn't seem like an issue until it became an issue because certain things that we drink do alter our anger or our mood. It triggers things differently. And you'll hear people say, like, I can't drink tequila or I cannot drink whiskey, different things. And so we, there was a couple of times we had fought, and then Amos had said, Let's just, we need to stop. Like it, we we only fight. We the only time we ever argue is when we've been drinking. So we quit and we quit for four or five months. And then there was one time he found a uh, because I had just a little bottle of vodka in our closet, and I even kind of forgot it was there. And he found it, and then that kind of blew up things, and we were like, okay, we're not drinking. So leading up to all of that, like I was looking at it, going, okay, I can quit whenever I want, until I couldn't with the postpartum depression. And then I'm looking back at all the stories of my family, and I'm hearing my aunts and uncles talk about their alcoholism, and not only that my aunts and uncles who have it, but their spouses and their spouses and what it's done to their family and how it's torn their family apart, and listening to my cousin say, I just wish it could be so different, because every time he comes over, all hell breaks loose, and just everything because he just ruins everything. And so I keep hearing all that, and I've witnessed it and I've seen the destruction that it causes. And all I could think is like, I'm not doing this to my family. I'm I have four beautiful kids and a husband who is like the most incredible gift God's ever given me, and I'm destroying that with this disease. So suicide was the only thing. Like, I'm out. I'm not going to do this. I'm not gonna be that person that my kids are sitting counseling when they're older. And saying my mom was an alcoholic and the house was chaos and all the trauma. There's just so much trauma that comes with that. And I was not gonna be that person. And so it took a lot. It took a lot of consideration back and forth in my head. And December 5th was the day I'd had it. I hit rock bottom. And I remember it was a Thursday morning. And two oldest got to school. Amos took the two youngest to day care. And he headed in to work. And I got out of bed. I was already out of bed because I got everyone off like a normal morning. And started to get ready because I was heading straight to the liquor store to go buy two bottles. I was contemplating two or three, two might not be enough. And then I had pills. And as I was getting ready to go, the front door opened and Amos came back through the door. And I remember looking at him and asking him, like, what are you doing here? And he, his words were something like, I don't know, I don't know why I'm here, but we need to talk. That God had turned his car around, there was a divine, complete divine intervention of he just felt like he needed to come home. And if he wouldn't have, I would not be here today. So when I talk about my faith and I talk about Christ and how he has completely saved me from so many moments of destruction of things that could have happened, even to the day of my death, even to the day that I thought that I was going to die. He was like, No, you are not. And he used Amos in such a profound way because I'll speak when I speak about this, I will tell people, listen to that still small voice, whether you believe it or you don't, whether you believe in Christ or not, our gut never ever lies. When we feel that gut instinct, you can say it's your gut, or you can say, for those of us that are believers, it is the Holy Spirit prompting us to do something. And when we feel that prompting, we need to act on it. When someone comes into our brain or into our spirit, call that person, text that person, check in on whoever is on your heart. Because if my husband would not have listened and would not have followed that prompting and thought, oh, she's fine. I just need to, I just need to get to work. I got, because I mean, he was on his way to the office at 8 a.m. in the morning with tons of stuff to do. But instead, he's like, No, something is wrong. And whatever's going on, I need to get home. And so that saved my life. And um, there are there's also one person, there's always one person I also think that is that when you hit rock bottom, God has that angel, earthly angel, that is going to be there, that is going to be the convincer, the one who can get through. Because a lot of people are stubborn. I'm very stubborn. And so if Amos would have tried to convince me that day to get help, I would have not. I would I would have been like, you are crazy, leave me alone. I uh I would have pushed. I would have pushed and I would have pushed. And things would have continued. And Kate, this is where Kate comes in, because I went back into bed as soon as he got there, and I was bawling hysterically, trying to figure out what am I gonna do now? I gotta get out of here. I gotta figure out a way because I have I've got this figured out and I can't back out now because just because. Again, I'm stubborn. But Amos called Kate Anderson, who I had been attending a Bible study at Hills Beaver Creek. Her and her husband have a huge heart for the Lord and the lost, and they have a ministry called New Creation Ministry. They have they planted a church in a pig barn. I mean, the the list goes on and on how incredible these people are. And two little arms just swooped in around me in bed, and it I she just I could smell her, even though I couldn't know for sure who it was. I knew like because I my back was to the door, and she just crawled into bed and she just said, Heather, it's time. It's time. Like, and then she asked me, What did you mean when you called me a couple weeks ago and you said you needed to pack your bags? You need to, I need to pack. I guess, and I don't remember this. And she said, You kept saying that you need to pack your bags. Where were you going? Where were you going, Heather, when you when you said that to me? And I can't I can't say today that I even know. I don't know if it was that I was talking about going to treatment or if I was talking about going away. So she convinced me to go out in the living room, and at that point, I knew it was I was not gonna die that day. I knew it was time to just be just blah, like I was gonna get everything out, and it was gonna be probably the hardest thing I'd ever gone through, which it was, because I'm sitting in front of the man I love and saying, I have been lying to you. There's so much betrayal and so much manipulation, and that's not fair. That's not fair to him. But he did look at me with grace and with love, and didn't shame me. He didn't there wasn't a single ounce of gall, you just you didn't make me feel bad. Nothing. Like it was just, I think back to that day, and it was such uh, it was so there was so much relief that came off me. I can even feel it right now, just relief of I don't have to hide anymore. Like they know now now the scariest thing ever is now that they know now I have to live without alcohol. Oh boy. Because that's one reason why alcoholics or addicts do not want to be found out is because they don't know how they would live their life without alcohol. That's the scariest part.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Right. Okay, so uh so wow. I think I don't think there's a dry eye in this room, you guys. Um okay, Amos, you on that day. We just heard how you made her feel. What did you know had to happen going forward? Or what did you hope would happen?

SPEAKER_00 29:06

You know, there was the that day was a lot to process. And uh Heather had mentioned that she was saying things to Kate that she didn't remember, and it kind of reminded me of of um trying to have conversations with her, and they were just kind of nonsense, you know, they they gotten worse in the last like the last couple months. And um so when you're when you see your wife struggling, and you you can't there are times where you just can't communicate with her, you can't hold a conversation, and you're actually kind of scared for your your kids and when you're not there and what's going on, and all of a sudden here's an answer, it's like hallelujah, you know.

SPEAKER_03 29:58

Right?

SPEAKER_00 29:58

I mean, I was so proud of you for for just you know being open and honest, and it was like, okay, I think things are gonna turn around right now, you know. And uh I remember being pretty quiet. I remember you were um you're holding back, and I found I found a bottle and we brought it out, and and okay, what's you know, what's all what's this all about?

SPEAKER_02 30:23

And I think it was empty.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

It was there, yeah, it was there.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

If I'm going out, I'm going out big. Right. Right. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

But what I remember though, I think and I think this is interesting about alcohol is alcoholics when they're drinking, at least in Heather's case, you're just an automatic liar.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Is such it's like a switch just flipped and you were you'd lie. But when you sobered up, you wouldn't, you know, if I ever asked asked you something about it, you just wouldn't say anything. But I think when Kate came over, you were you'd you were you were you would have been partaking that morning. But as you sobered up, that switch flipped off and you were it kind of it was back to you, and the truth started to to come out. And when the switch flipped, I could see the real Heather again.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

She was back.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

So yeah, all kind of started to make sense at that point. And then, you know, there's now there's a there's a light, there's an answer. And now it's well, then now it's uh okay, what what are we dealing with? What do we do next? Right. The work. Where do we go from here? Uh so yeah, it was it was hard.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Yeah. So where did you guys go from there? What happened next?

SPEAKER_02 31:50

I was kicking and screaming a little bit when they mentioned inpatient treatment because I can't go in somewhere 30 days, the world will fall apart. Who's gonna feed the kids? Who's gonna do the laundry? I my employer can't find out, my my family can't find out, my friends, I can't like, oh, hold up. Like, as soon as we started talking through everything, I realized that it there was gonna be there was gonna be a lot of damage control of of what had been going on, and now there's no more hiding. And so I was fighting for outpatient.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

I was fighting for inpatient, yes.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

So to make to bring light of it, it was me kicking and screaming, Amos is like pushing, like nope, uh-uh. Like you're going. You're going, like, we need a break.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

Let's do it. This let's do this the right way. Let's get this.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

You just wanted to break from me. So we talked through all of that. Kate being the angel that she is, she had already, and their Kate's a uh counselor. They their new creation ministry is they do a lot of counseling with marriages, they do counseling with, I mean, they are truly the hands and feet, the vessel that is out there doing the work. They're in it with everybody. So for her to drop everything that morning and come to my aid and clear her calendar and say, we are going to get this figured out. And it is going to be okay. And she had already called treatment centers. She had already, she has connections in that world since that's where the world she works in. She's a nurse by trade. So she knew, even though she never approached me ever in those three years, and I would smell like at a Bible study. I mean, because that's when I would start, is in the afternoon, once I get home, you know, and so I'd go to Bible study, and I she smelt it, but she never confronted me. She never pushed because she knew that I would retreat. And now she's no longer a safe zone for me, right? And then so that day when she when um when she was talking through like impatient and I know this person at uh at Woodstock, I know this person here, I know that, you know, and and I've already called and they have a they don't have a bed yet. I mean, she was so instrumental in that whole how she moved everything. And so from December, so finally I agreed to impatient. Uh it definitely, I think it took overnight, but I agreed to impatient, and once I had, then it was time to go to talk to my employer. So December 5th of till December 17th, the day that I checked in. And I talked that those those 12 days, Tracy, they were awful. They were, it was, it was awful. I had to suck up every ounce of pride, everything that I had ever thought that I represented for the last 40 years of my life. I'm now going to walk directly into the face of every single person I love and tell them that that's not the person that they've they've known. That sucked. Like I've been a liar. And even though there was so much grace from every single one of them, because they were just proud, they were proud of me, um, it still was humiliating. So when I um after all of that, leaving the kids was awful. But I knew, I just knew. So for anybody who's ever so scared about treatment or going to get help, leading up to it is no fun. Leaving the ones you love is is hard. But make sure that you have a village, make sure you have a community that can look you in the eye and say, your family's gonna be okay. Like we got them. Because that's that's what happened. I had girls from my Bible study. Switching to Amos. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

So I dropped you off. And I remember we had very different emotions about that. You you were you were struggling with it. And uh before I go too far down this road, I want to say part of the reason why I think you're humble enough to say this, but you're well respected in the community. You're out there, you're a face for your work, and you do your job very well. And it's not like you just had you know casual friends, like you had professionals in this area who were of you know well known in the community that you had relationships with that you had to tell them the truth. And that's hard.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

Yeah, it was it was very hard.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

So, but you humbled yourself and you got your priorities right, and you said this is this has to happen. And I remember dropping you off, and we're standing there in a hallway, and you said, I don't think I can do this. And I remember the anxiety in my heart going, uh-oh. Is she what are we doing here?

SPEAKER_02 37:36

You almost wanted to kick me square in the butt and shut the door, push me in.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

We don't we this has this has to happen. And um, you were sad, and I was just there was a lot of emotions, sadness. But I think the biggest emotion for me was this is this is the start of something new. Yeah, I was grateful for that. So in that there was joy, you know. I wasn't happy to be leaving you, but I was like, thank goodness, you know, let's get this, let's get this show on the road, let's get back to being us. Yeah, and uh and and sorry, I'm not leaving here with you.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

Yeah, yeah. I I uh remember hugging him, and as I was hugging him, like my I was clawing him pretty much, like you are not leaving me here, like you cannot leave me here.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

Yeah, and it's not the nicest place. I mean it's not the Hilton.

SPEAKER_02 38:32

Well, it's it's a it's an institution. I mean, any treatment center, yeah. And the one thing that was so cool is that I mean, they see women in and out of here, right? They see people in and out of the treatment center, and nobody wants to go in. I mean, there might be some people just because the food's not bad, and they literally have 30 days away from life, right? But the lady, and I was trying to think of her name, just this sweet, sweet, middle-aged, skinny lady who's also gone through it is standing there. She's like, oh, come on, just get out of here, sweetheart. She's like, she's like pushing Amos out the door. She'll be fine. We have her, we got her. Come on, honey. Come, you know, like God bless her. That moment of like, let's go, let's let it, let's get into the healing. Like, let your hubby go. You'll see him, you know, soon. But it was December 17th of January 17th. So I was there over the holidays, which a lot of people go, Whoa, like, wow, away from your family over Christmas and New Year. And but the best part about that is I got two extra visitation days because they they could come on and Christmas fell on a Wednesday, New Year's fell on a Wednesday. So I got Sundays and Wednesdays versus just Sundays. So it was kind of nice through through that time. I was spoiled with that. And he came and then he brought the kids every time.

SPEAKER_01 39:57

So just um this is kind of a going in a different direction, but real quick, I want to just camp there for a minute. How did you talk to your children about this? Because clearly they're visiting you at rehab. Yep. So you guys were very, it sounds like you were very open.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

Not necessarily. Okay. Okay. The youngest youngers didn't really understand. I was on an extended Bible school, like, and this was a Woodstock is actually a it's Christian-based. Um, and so it was, it was neat. I mean, it was kind of like Jacob, Jacob knew. I mean, there's locks on the doors, they gotta have get buzzed to get in. Like, this is not your typical Bible school.

SPEAKER_03 40:39

I didn't think about that.

SPEAKER_02 40:41

Yeah, let's hope not. But there's a there's a big gym, so the kids are able to play ball and like keep entertained. Um, but they loved the all the other women that were in there, were super nice to the kids and they'd play with them. And so they had fun when they were there. Brittany said, I never want to go back there again, or the oldest of our girls, because she's like, it's just not very warm. I'm like, Yeah. So it was an extended Bible. Jake, okay, my son knows. I mean, we've had great conversations about it now. Yeah. I will never, I will, I will never not be open and honest. Like we are, I'm excited. Just as excited as I am to have this podcast to speak out about it, to because we go and we speak, we go back into places like Woodstock and other. I mean, we will go speak to anybody who asks us to, um, just if it fits into our schedule, because we want people to bring awareness. So especially for our kids, yeah, girls have 30% more chance of having it in their three times. Oh, I said it wrong. Thank you for correcting me, honey. Three times more likely to have the same exact gene. So we have three beautiful little girls that could potentially, if they don't, if they're not taught, if they're they don't have the resources, if they don't learn, and so we will be not in their face, but I'm gonna be very blunt and very protective of it.

SPEAKER_01 42:03

Yes. Okay, talk to us about the education that you guys received because Heather, you and I have talked about the stereotype of an alcoholic of an alcoholic, is we just want to look at them and say, some of us, and say, just stop, just put the bottle down. But it's not that easy, is it? Yeah, tell us about that.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

The neuroscience, and there's so incredible studies, like huge books full and full and full about the studies of how the neuroscience, the brain, will operate, how my brain as an alcoholic versus Amos, as an in the in our world, we call y'all normal. You're the normal without the disease. And so the receptors in the brain will light up completely differently if you were to hook us up to a drip of alcohol. And we don't have a shutoff switch switch, whereas you guys can have one or two and be fine, or you can go weeks without, or the hangover that you get, that's a reminder of why you don't drink. And so you literally can go months where we're like, okay, got a hangover, or I don't feel well, just let's just drink it off. We, I mean, literally can wake up and take a shot of vodka and we're right back into it. And that's that's the definition of insanity. It really is, but it doesn't even phase us because it's just our body is telling us we need more. You need more in order to get over this, the shaky and the sweating and all of that, you just need more. And it's like this continuous cycle that never stops, hence why alcohol kills so many people because they they drink themselves to death because they don't we don't have an off switch.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

Not well known, is that not at all? That is not well known. I didn't know that. Yeah, I thought you get to be an alcoholic by drinking too much, and it just becomes a habit. I had no idea that there was a neural neurological. Difference in her brain that kind of took the choice away from her. I just had no idea.

SPEAKER_02 44:07

And then trying to continuously maintain that. Or the the not drinking, the the trying, my body and my brain is telling me that I need it. I'm telling myself I don't want it. I don't want to. I want to be done. I don't want to, I don't want to do this. Um, and then I would have the I'm gonna get caught eventually. Something bad's gonna happen. And so when I was younger and I'd look at my relatives, I would be like, God, just stop. Like you're ruining your family's lives. Please just stop. And I would plead. Or, you know, when my dad would, well, just any of us, we would drink, I mean, we drink it Christmas, and it's like the fights would break out and the arguments start, and I'm just like, why do we do this every time, every single time? But when it's in your blood and it's in your makeup, and you just you can't stop. It's just a part of you. And like alcohol, the other part they don't realize is that alcohol withdraw is the one um, I don't know if you would call it a drug. It's a drug. So it's the one drug you can die from. It's I think it might be, it's not the only, but through withdrawing from alcohol, that is why you're monitored so much and detox. If you've drank a lot, is because everything is like it's a poison, right? So it's in your body and it kills you in when you're coming down, which is even more flat like I didn't know that. Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

Heather was very fortunate to have a a counselor that she met with on a regular basis that um while I was in treatment. In while in treatment, that was working on her PhD on alcoholism. She had what she was, what, seven years sober?

SPEAKER_02 45:51

Yeah, and she was also a redhead with four kids, and her choice was vodka. So we were, yeah, it's like we Right.

SPEAKER_00 45:59

So she got a lot of education, a lot of booked knowledge on that. And one of the values of the counseling she got is I got to join her every once a week uh for this. And um, you know, anyone listening to this who's going through the same thing, you you don't know what you don't know. You may think you know something, but you've got to get the education on it. I'm so grateful that I had the opportunity to learn from her. Her name was Heather as well. Learn from her what you're going with because it gave me empathy for you. It made me d understand more about what you're going through, how to deal with it, how to reconcile the past, and um understand really the world more too.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

So that's such a key piece, that education piece just allows the empathy, like you said, and the grace. Um, okay, something you said, Heather, that I'd really like to go back on, because I do think this may be a barrier for people to seek help or for someone to even realize that maybe they do have a problem and they need to see somebody, is you said, I had to go in front of everybody that I knew and basically say that I'm a liar. But on the now coming on the other side of that, Heather, tell us what that was like because talk someone through that that's facing that that shame or that like you said, humiliation.

SPEAKER_02 47:26

How Amos explained a little bit that I'm in the community and yeah, people people know me because I love people and I I make it a point of my life to talk to people and get to know people and I want to hear their story, I want to understand them, but then um that also opens up a lot of people into my life, and um so when I was going going through that whole process of okay, now that I've let people in my life, now I have to go back to them who I've really let in and let them know that this is something that is happening to me, as scary as it was to talk the the first couple, like for an example, my boss, in a in confronting him, it's that feeling that everyone gets that heart beaten, the you start to sweat, you're like, I can't do this, I can't do this, I'm not, I can't, I can't. And the minute you open your mouth and you say it, it there's a weird relief. There's a weird, like, oh my gosh, okay. I it's out there. Now it's out there. Now I can't take it back. And you almost wait for their response. Like, I'm either fired or, and I Dennis is he's one of my true, like he's like, he's the same age as my dad, he's like my best friend, and yet I have the opportunity to have him as a boss. Like, I'm so blessed to have him as a boss because he looked at me and he said, It's gonna be okay. We're gonna get through this. It's gonna be okay. Like, whatever you need, we're gonna get through this. And then, okay, well, that person didn't just lash out at me, and that person didn't just tell me that I am a fraud and a fake, and how dare you, and all the things you think they're going to say, none of them say it. Not a single soul has ever looked at me yet. Maybe behind my back. And if you have and you're listening to this, you better come apologize. I'm just kidding. But if if there's a if there's a feeling of this person's gonna lash out, it it's it's that is false. And if they do lash out, I guarantee that person has something that they're hiding or something that they haven't dealt with, and it's gonna bring that to the surface for them, and it's intimidating. And they don't want to be known or caught, so as you might just start a domino effect, and that is that if that there's anything that has happened, it is that. It is that I have people in my life who have said, gosh, Heather, what you're doing and what you're speaking out about. Like I know that I have a problem and I'm not ready yet. And that's okay. That it's okay if you're not ready yet. But again, it's just that little drip here and there of drip, like that. I yes, hopefully I'm getting through to some of those people that have that fear because it has not happened. All the fears that I it's just it's been a it's been a beautiful process because when you open yourself up, there is the possibility, but it is very small. It's very small.

SPEAKER_01 50:31

I think that's so important for people here just to come clean. Yeah, I think is I think that's the biggest barrier, is they fear what people are gonna think about them, you know.

SPEAKER_02 50:42

The the harsh reality is you either come clean and you quit or you die. Oh gosh. That's that is the reality, and I know it's harsh, but it will kill you. It is a disease that is unstoppable unless you decide if you stand firm in who you are and your faith, and you believe that for me, this is what I did. I was, I said to myself, like I am a child of God, and he has created me to be this amazing, big, beautiful butterfly that loves people, that wants nothing more than to serve others, to bless others, to just sprinkle goodness everywhere I go for his glory. And of course the devil's gonna want to stomp that and take that. And there's been other people in my life who have tried to cage that up through controlling who I am, and I just know, no, like I I ever since treatment and ever since getting out, it's like I stand two feet on the ground every single morning and I tell myself, like, you are meant to do more, you are meant to be the God, the person that God has created you to be, and that's who you are. And then some like it's just gonna get better and better and better. And to me, that's fun. I have fun with it every day that I am sober now. People, I was scared of sobriety. I thought sobriety was gonna be so lame. I used to say that. I used to be like, you don't drink? What is wrong with you? How do you not drink? And when I would say that to people, because people say that to me now, not knowing if they don't know me, and I am looking at 20 years ago Heather when they say that to me, like, I did that. I did that to alcoholics, I did that. I you know, like, whoa. So when you talk to somebody who isn't drinking, they have a reason, and it's not any of your business. First off, if they're drinking a soda, let them drink a soda and don't question them. I'm not questioning you why you are, you know what I mean? So there's that, there's just some true hard facts that come with, because other people who have someone who's drinking, that's hard. When you have your loved one who is an active alcoholic, and you hear they either quit or they die, that is not fun to hear. So the encouragement and the love that you can give back to them, even when it's so hard, and praying for them, wanting them wanting them to quit and saying, How how dare you do this to our family? All the things that can be so brutal and just make them want to drink more, because it it can backfire. It backfires on people all the time. If Amos would have said to me, I don't know what is wrong with you, but you are a disgrace. You are ruining this family. You, you know, I remember hearing those words when I was a kid at family functions, you know what I mean? So I know how you can speak just really icky things into someone's life who really has no control over what's going on in their life. Because we we don't want to be drinking. I don't want to be drinking. I didn't want, I wanted nothing to do with it, but it had such a control over me. And until God intervened, and that day, like everything came to a head, that will happen to every single person if they want it. People can heal, people can get past this disease. There is, I'm living, walking proof that this disease does not does not own me. I am owning the fact that I have this disease, but it does not own me.

unknown 54:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 54:45

Amen.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

Oh, that's good. Yeah. This is the end. We don't need to say anything else. That was awesome. That was so good. Um, okay, on that, just building upon that, Heather, you are giving people so much hope. I mean, really and truly. I'm sitting in this room and I just feel I just can't wait for people to hear this. It's just so empowering. What are some things? Because you've been sober for a little over two years now. Yeah. Two and a half. Yeah. What are some practical things that you do to stay sober?

SPEAKER_02 55:17

I actually have to say it has been two, two, which we never did celebrate.

SPEAKER_04 55:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 55:21

Because we're gonna celebrate that. When I when I got this is another thing to keep in mind for those who go through treatment and they're sober. I rem I remember one of the counselors saying to me, who I still keep in contact with, she said, You you you gotta be super careful because relapses is just it's almost a guarantee for most. It just, because we, it's never a one and done, usually. You hope that it is, you live for that, you want it to be, but you worry about somebody who's sober and gotten out of treatment when things are going really good, not when things are bad. Because when things are going good, we have this extra bit of competence. We have this, well, I got this. Like, I'm doing so good. I have gone without for this long, so I can have one. I can like I see my friends out in the patio drinking margaritas. And can I really imagine life without it? Like, do I really have to go the rest of my life without this? I'm gonna give it a shot. I'm just gonna try. I'm just gonna see what happens, which is literally playing with fire. It's playing with the devil again. Like, here you go, devil. Go ahead and have a little bit more access. Have a have just a you give him any access at all, and he will run with it. And he did. So it was May. It was May after I got out, and it was a beautiful day. We had friends over. Um, my kids had friends over. We're all in the backyard, we're shucking corn. And when I went to the grocery store to get dinner, I had gotten a bottle of um peppermint schnaps and thought, and it was just just a littler bottle. And I'm like, I'm just just smelling out like outside, like it's so beautiful out. And I gave every excuse to myself on why I could. And I walked upstairs and was feeling just good, just warm. It's like just the first drink, right? And Amos looked at me and immediately knew, immediately, and then just kind of in a little bit of an uproar, all the kids went different places and just scrambled because he was told it from our counselor that if she had relapses, you need to get everybody out. Like it was pretty dramatic, which I don't think it needed to be, but he Amos didn't necessarily know any better. He knew what the professional said.

SPEAKER_00 57:42

Um I'd heard it's it's a it's a fast downhill slide. True. It's like it's gonna the second time around, it's bad. And because an alcoholic's their veins are different in their throat, it can cause all kinds of issues with you know bodily issues.

SPEAKER_02 58:04

You can literally choke on your I mean that's anyway. There's a there's a lot that goes into it that we can possibly do like a different part two of the signs and different things, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:14

So I I reacted, yeah. I reacted to what I'd heard happens and I executed on the plan that we'd come up with, which was just get the kids away and get them separated from this so they're not witnessing anything that goes down. And we and to Heather's credit, she sat down and just kind of you're you're pretty quiet. Yeah, I just you didn't fight. You just we had a conversation and um it was still embarrassing reconciled.

SPEAKER_02 58:39

Like it was embarrassing, it was awful. Neighbor, my parents, his parents, like every oh great, Heather relapsed. Oh, here we go again, you know. Like and in my heart, I look back at that now and go, thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Jesus, that that happened. Because that was for me. You give me an inch, I go a mile. Like most most of us, we do. And I was, if I would have got out gotten away with it, I would have tried again. And I would have tried again, and something really bad could have happened, right? So instead it was like brakes are on, nope, not gonna go there. That is not happening. Amos, we both wrote down exactly what's gonna happen if it happened again. And I needed that line, as harsh as it it was, it was it was harsh that day, but I needed to hear this cannot happen. Like you are better than this, which I knew I was, and it also helped me identify the fact that I can't have one. I can't. I it is it is life or death for Heather Kittelson, period. And now I know.

SPEAKER_00 59:44

Now you know, and so that day was challenging, and you know, I kind of reacted on some things that your counselor had said, and um also at the same time I was I was setting some clear, pretty clear boundaries. Uh the boundaries was the word that was in my head that when you cross this line, this is what happens. And we're not using the kids as a pawn, we're getting them to safety, and that's part of the boundary that you would have to just deal with. So can you speak to what if the boundaries aren't set? What if you have someone who doesn't have good boundaries and reacts to a situation like that differently?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:26

Well, let's let's say you would have said, Heather, have you been drinking? And I said, Yes, I have. And there was a hug, and well, that's probably not a good idea. And if you would have been kind, but not necessarily firm in that situation, which some people could consider that to be enabling the person, um that would have been awful. Because in my mind, I would have felt like I got away from it, or got away with it, I should say. And most likely, just due to the nature of an alcoholic, I would have tried again and I and I would have tried again and I would have kept trying until I really got caught and it got out of control again. So with enabling, that's what I feel there's there's there's one way or the other. It's either you are super firm and it feels harsh and it feels icky. I mean, that felt icky. I was I was devastated in that moment. But it's it's exactly what I needed. Versus if you would have loved me and hugged me and been so kind and oh honey, I'm sorry that you relapsed. Let's try again tomorrow. I would have probably finished my bottle that night. So interesting. Enablers, it's it's a scary world when it when it comes to the enabler because they will say in treatment and stuff that that alcohol will kill the alcoholic, but also the enabler will.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:59

Yeah. And boundaries isn't something that comes natural. It's not something that you're born with, it's something that you learn, and it's not a topic of conversation at dinner parties. Hey, how are your boundaries?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:10

Yeah, right constantly not. Maybe it should be, Amos. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:14

But there are resources that where you can really learn about them. And again, this is a case of most people don't know what they don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:23

And I can even put in as we do show notes and all of that, some really great links to the boundary books, some that have really helped me in my relationships and and that have grown immensely some of my relationships just due to the knowledge that I have now from these books.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:39

Well, two years sober.

unknown 1:02:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:41

Here you are. How what are some practical things for someone who is listening right now or someone who's supporting somebody? What are some practical things? Actually, can I ask that again? Mm-hmm. Cut that out. Um keep it. Okay, live live. Um something you said to me actually last night in a beautiful conversation that you and I were having, you were talking a lot about boundaries. And actually, Heather gave me a book about boundaries tonight, and I'm really excited to read it. But you said boundaries, setting good, healthy boundaries has been something that is really just a practical thing that has really helped you with your sobriety. Can you talk about that a little bit? I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:24

Love boundaries, love them. I did not know boundaries existed. I grew up with no boundaries. I love people and I come in hot and heavy and I invade people's boundaries my whole life. Like I didn't, I just didn't know. And Amos is really good at boundaries and setting them. And even in a relationship, I mean, uh marriages need boundaries, friendships need if we learned boundaries. I think boundaries need to be an a course that's not elective. It needs to be a course in like your senior year that you learn boundaries because it will help in your work, it will help in all your relationships. The world would look so different with boundaries. And I'm not talking about like China wall boundaries, because I'm talking just open, honest, relatable, kind. Boundaries are actually super kind to one another in relationships because if people know where they stand or people know where they can't go or they can go, there's such less confusion or question. So for me, I know where my boundaries lie now with alcohol. I can be around it. I can't be alone around it. I don't think. Um I can go into a party. I so for friends, some people can like it's either it's done and cannot be around it. We'll choose never to walk in a bar, we'll choose never, I mean, because there's different severities. There just is. And certain people have to be cut out of your life. There is no question about that whatsoever, because whoever you have drank with in the past will continue, they will take you right back in. They just will, they they're drinking, they will want you to drink. You think you want to get sober, yeah, right, because we have a better plan for you because they're not gonna respect your boundaries, they're just not. So when they when you go into treatment, they say when you come out, you're going to have to say goodbye to some people, and that scares a lot of people, especially that are in relationships, husband and wife, or just boyfriend, girlfriend, and the boyfriend's still drinking, and you get out, there's no way you stay sober because if you're around it all the time. Um, so there's a mutual respect that comes with boundaries. Even for Amos, it's easier, it's easy for him because he's not an alcoholic, he's normal. For him to say, if you're not drinking, I'm not drinking. So if it's not, if it it's not my it's never gonna be in our house ever. Um But I can be around other people that are. It's going to continue to be in my family. I know that. People aren't going to quit because I quit. Or they're not going to quit because I almost died. I mean, there's a severity of that that just doesn't make sense, but it but it doesn't have to necessarily because I don't expect anybody to quit because I did. If someone wants to quit, dang right, that's exciting. I would, if for what I've done or what I've said to model how incredible incredible this life can be without it. But ultimately, you will have to set whatever boundaries are healthy for you. Like I do not go to AA. Some people need AA. Like need it. It is a proven system that keeps people sober. And so I am all pro AA. I think it's an incredible program. For me, I have chosen to speak out. It's, I have chosen to talk about it. I have chosen to tell my testimony to anybody and everybody that want to know, that want to listen, that want to hear it. If you ask me any questions, I don't care how crazy they are, I will answer them. That has kept me sober because the more people that know my story or know who I am fully and completely, then they now have permission to hold me accountable. So if I'm at a store and I'm tempted to get that or get that or get another thing, then somebody can call me out. And I'm okay with that, right? So that keeps me accountable. I have a community and a village of people that just love me and accept me for who I am, and they know there's no pressure. There's no, so I don't have a lot of the social pressures that I have to keep those boundaries from because I really believe I have a lot of people in my life that just respect and love the the path that I'm going down. But there's a lot that goes in two boundaries, and they're healthy and they're good. And I give anybody and everybody permission to set them with who that who they need to because it feels so good. It feels so good when you know that you've set a boundary and it's and it's healthy for both of you. The outcome is always a positive one. Always.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:13

So beautiful. I love it. You guys, I don't know how we are on time, Amos. I'm looking at Amos, our tech guru over here. One hour. We're at one hour. We're at one hour. Yeah, we're playing. No one needs to push on it. No we need to wrap this up. There's just so much goodness here, you guys. I know, again, we talked at the beginning how much courage it takes to come out and say what happened and what you lived through. But what I hear is that you survived and that you're gonna help other people survive. And so, and not only just survive, but thrive. Yes. The first day I met you, Heather, which wasn't that long ago, honestly, I don't know. I haven't known you my whole life. I know I feel like I do. But um, when I first met you, you tell me a little snippet of your story, just a snippet. And you said to me, Tracy, I have never felt so free and happy in my entire life. I'm clear, I'm focused, and I never had that before. So I just I know people that are gonna hear this story, they're gonna be able to get to that territory too, of just be clear-minded and focused and free. And maybe they don't even know that they're in bondage right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:13

So, yeah. Thank you truly for be having the courage to come out and say all that you've said today. And this podcast is just gonna continue. We get to hear more of you on this podcast. And I'm just gonna subscribe right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:28

Please subscribe. Everyone has subscribe at this moment. It's gonna be so fun to hear stories like this from all different walks of life. Yep. They're the most beautiful stories, beautiful people. And this this podcast, every single person is gonna have something to relate to. And it's not only gonna be able to just open people's ideas and horizons of what is going on in our society and in our world, but it's gonna let people in on all the questions that they have. Because we go through this life. Perfect example is I have a quadriplegic who is young. And there's questions like, do you open a door for them? Do you like what is what is acceptable? What is not acceptable? Is there are are there things that we can help you with without offending you? You know, I have so I'm I'm digging in. I'm asking every question I possibly can that's gonna bring light to all the things we're thinking and nobody's talking about. Like I want people to talk, I want them to hear the truth. It's just real, raw, and just it's gonna be fun and light too. I mean, there's gonna be moments of tears like you heard come out of me today, but there's gonna be so much just joy and goodness throughout this whole entire podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:46

So good. At sneak peek, we're gonna hear more from Amos, too, right? Oh boy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:51

Oh boy. Yes, and you're too.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:56

So thank you so much for interviewing me and being here and being a part of the podcast. Such an honor. You're a dear friend of us. So thank you, Tracy. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:04

And I'll just say I'm super proud of you. Yes. For this moment, for the moment two and a half years ago, and two years ago, both those times. I'm proud of you. And I'm glad you're still I'm just so grateful that that you're still here because had you gone through with that, I never would have known. I never would have known why.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:32

And you're referring to the suicide. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:35

I never would have I I would have come home and I and I would have been, I don't understand. What what just happened? What did I miss? And that would have affected me for decades, for years. And um you hear is much better. Way. Way more better. Way better. Way, way more better.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:02

I feel the love.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:04

So I'm just grateful that you made the hard decision, but the right decision.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:08

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:10

I appreciate it. Our kids appreciate it. And I'm sure our listeners do as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:14

Yes. I love being married to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:16

It's pretty awesome. Both of us. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:20

God is good. And it's amazing to see what he's done in our in our in our marriage. I'm grateful for that.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:27

I'm pumped to just see what's going to continue to happen. It's just going to get better and better. So tune in, everybody who is listening. Please come back. It's going to be so good.